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1967 1 Cent Doubled Die Obverse

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Pillar of the Community
United States
2750 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
why isn't the underlying legend offset equally all the way around?


It's probably a Class V doubled die. The rotation on a Class V doubled die is pivoted so the spread is strong on one side and weak or nonexistent on the opposite side.

http://doubleddie.com/203927.html

You guys seriously think this isn't a doubled die?
1. The 1967 1 Cent DDO is fairly well known and has been posted on this forum multiple times before. OPs coin matches all of the 67 DDOs posted previously.
2. OPs coin does have some slight Machine Doubling. A coin can have both MD and a DD.
3. What's with all this magnification talk? You can tell this doubling is visible at 10x magnification if that's what you're worried about. Just because he used strong magnification to better show the split serifs to better confirm the doubling doesn't mean it's invisible with less magnification. You really think OP's second set of photos is 40x-50x? How small do you think a cent is?

I'm baffled at how anyone can look at the first image and say "not a doubled die" or "too small". Especially when the 1967 Cent DDO (which this coin is) is the only true doubled die on a Canadian small cent that I've heard anyone talk about.

Edit: Apologies for the anger and bitterness, that was unnecessary.
Edited by Tanman2001
12/30/2019 8:35 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
783 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oldmike to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tanman 2001 ,jeepers, mellow out, no one is saying it isn't a doubled die. I was trying to point out that there is also MD in my humble opinion, and the comment on magnification was more about the OP's other posts than this one , didn't mean to confuse anyone
Edited by oldmike
12/30/2019 6:39 pm
Valued Member
Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  7:33 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I respect any and all opinions given on my posts, so thank you for all of the replies, but my use of the microscope and high magnification photos on any and all my posts are simply used to pinpoint what I am seeing so that there is no confusion like tanman2001 mentioned.

I would also like to add that regardless of the size of the error big or small (when it is determined to be one), I believe it should still be noted and at least some information be made readily available regarding it for others and I don't mind being the one to write about them. I'm not concerned about market value or size of the error, it is simply the information I learn that is sufficient enough for me to continue, the market for collectors will never grow at all if nobody ever knows about the potential errors they could be missing regardless of it's size all because we choose not to notice them when others do, we all know that when it comes to doubled die coins the US probably has the most, even the smallest/ less noticeable of the bunch that even end up catching pretty high premiums, because people actually took the time to look and document them.

If nobody is really doing it for Canada than obviously our error coins will never be noticed at least not as well as others, again regardless of size. Even in US error coins size seems to make no difference.

So with all of that said, I know many of my posts can seem excessive but I make them to show my findings, and if I happen to find something of real interest at least it has been well documented for a future collector to find and make use of. Same goes with the ones that I document that turn out to be nothing, at least someone took the time and effort to show what NOT to look for.

That is my humble opinion and again, thank you for everyones opinions.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Pillar of the Community
United States
2750 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  7:38 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I apologize for that, not the best day for me today. I misunderstood what you meant.

I think okie's post is what made me upset, and you simply said "I agree" to it.

Okie didn't make his opinion clear and said nothing to help the thread. He phrased it in a way that makes me think he doesn't believe it is a DDO, but again his stance isn't clear.

I agree that too much magnification can be extremely unhelpful for newbies and makes it far too easy to see things that aren't there or doubling that isn't real. (But it seems weird to bring this up on the thread where he actually found a strong, noticeable variety)

However, I believe people should collect what they want. If they want to collect microscopic flaws or non-errors, and they find enjoyment in it, so be it. As long as they don't have high expectations in the value of their finds, it's really not hurting anyone.

"You all have to learn the difference between..."
This is what really makes me upset. Is that not what OP is trying to do here? Isn't education the main purpose of the forum? How did saying this help him learn anything? What would help is if you said if the coin he found is or isn't a doubled die, maybe note what makes you think that way, and give him tips to learn more. Saying "you're wrong" and nothing else or saying "you need to learn" doesn't help anyone learn.
Edited by Tanman2001
12/30/2019 7:45 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1463 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No I havnt heard of a class V doubled die. We're learning like everyone. It does make it difficult to confidently name the exact type of variety when you have 2 or more types of doubling on a coin. The Canadian coin market has never been greatly exposed to the engineering behind double dies because we dont have any prominent doubled die strikes. So this is a learning experience for us all. Again I thank the poster for his efforts. Is quite intriguing.

Happy new year to all
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4475 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Although this 67 penny doubling is quite nice and obvious, there is the other side of this story, I am in Okie's camp where too much info on minor doubling and clashes ect. can create false errors, take this example at a local club the auction had a few very minor doubling 25 cents, they were worth no more than bullion plus a buck or two, yet a very young collector paid the opening 20 bucks for these coins, I guess he thought because the 2x2 said error doubling it was cool, 30 years from now these so called errors will still be not worth 20 bucks, this you don't want to happen to young collectors. I end with the point that the RCM mandate for circulation coins is not to make a perfect coin, just OK
Pillar of the Community
United States
2750 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  9:02 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If nobody is really doing it for Canada than obviously our error coins will never be noticed at least not as well as others, again regardless of size.


^This^

Absolutely agree with this. I think it's important for someone, or for all of us, to document and report our finds so others can be able to search for them. If no one knows they exist, no one will look for them. It reminds me of Billy G Crawford, a US die variety expert/collector who passed away a few years ago. He had his own die variety files, similar to John A Wexler. His files have since become lost. Only bits and pieces of them remain as copies of his digital magazine Die Variety News and his CD reference A Detailed Analysis of Lincoln Cent Varieties 1959-2009 which are incredibly hard to find. I was able to buy a CD with the reference and a few of the Die Variety News issues on eBay for $50. I was saddened by the amount of interesting varieties that he discovered or confirmed more than a decade ago that have since become lost. Some of his listings you would not be able to find info or images of anywhere else and it's not a stretch to say that many people in the hobby missed out on these neat varieties as Crawford's reference was lost to time.

P.S. Sorry again for the bitter post earlier, I regret that.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2750 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  9:20 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
they were worth no more than bullion plus a buck or two, yet a very young collector paid the opening 20 bucks for these coins


That's a good point.

I made mistakes like that starting out. I bought a damaged Jefferson nickel for $20 because it looked cool and I was told is was an error. It was a bummer to find out I was lied to and extorted, but I guess it was a good learning experience. I still have that coin.

People who sell errors need to be more up front on what they're selling.

We can advise newcomers not to buy anything without knowing what it is. We should make sure to tell people starting to collect errors and varieties that most aren't worth much.
Edited by Tanman2001
12/30/2019 9:28 pm
Valued Member
Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I obviously don't want newcomers to be mislead into thinking an error is worth more than what it is, I just think it is beneficial to everyone for these things to be more noticed and documented and that is why it is not often you see me ask "how much is it worth" or "what price range would this be in" , I usually leave anything money/cost related completely out of the topic because I don't know how much it is worth and I'm not interested in knowing, my only interest is, is it an error and if it is, should it be slabbed and it should be documented, while documenting the find along the way from start to finish.

collecting coins in general is never a get rich quick scheme, and newcomers should know that for sure I agree on that. But in almost all of my finds I never bothered mentioning how much it would be worth, mainly because I don't care how much it is worth, to me it is priceless because the hunt is thrilling enough for me.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Valued Member
Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  10:07 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would also like to add that most of my recent 1 Cent finds have all come from a hoard that was presumably from a collector at one point, I got these the day after they were dropped off at the bank. The bank called me the next day and I took them all and I didn't find any coins older than 1980's and the oldest being 1921, more than half of them were mixed George V's and George VI's and the rest being Queen Victoria's and a lot of them were lacquered which I was told is an old method of preservation of the coin. That is why I am paying extra attention to these coins because if they were a collectors than there is no telling what might be in these rolls, but I have found 2 SF 1953's, 3 DDO's and a clipped planchet from this batch alone, plus the numerous planchet flaws.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Edited by JohnWayne007
12/30/2019 10:11 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4475 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  10:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Someone new like this young collector at the club auction maybe 12 or 14, if they read these posts and see minor stuff being documented could believe as the 2x2 stated a doubling error as something really cool and thus this result. There are a few major doubling that deserves a good premium but they are far and few, the US has a few major date doubled dates penny that commands quite huge prices. It's cool you take the time to photo these coins, go to any large coin show you will find a dealer or two with a box full or pages of these types minor stuff for a buck or two and very few sales
Valued Member
Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 12/30/2019  10:58 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I totally see your point john100, my only thing is there are always 2 sides to a story. For all you know (unless you knew him) he may very well have known exactly what he was bidding on and for how much and maybe he was fine with that, a parent I'm sure was most likely there with him and knew what he was bidding on and for how much and there could have been a bigger scenario where they just had to have it as fillers for a set and didn't want anyone else to have it. If you don't personally know him and his situation, can you really go by that as an example.

My issue is big or small, worthless or huge premiums, it should all be documented. I never mention that the coins I find are worth anything or even refer to them as Rare exactly for this reason, I don't want people taking my findings as a big "hurry up and check your change" scenario, it is simply for the ones that enjoy searching for things they may have missed or didn't know about.

With all due respect I do believe one day the error coin market for Canada could skyrocket, if more collectors would actually take notice and let it. It seems like here in Canada all our finds are kept hush hush with each other and when others find something it is disregarded as minor or nothing meanwhile if you find a doubled eylid on a Lincoln Memorial cent everyone goes crazy (remember when I said regardless of size).

No one talks about our error coins because we never post anything more than a photo of our errors than let it disappear into the internet because no one bothered to actually take notice for what it is and not focus on what it is/was worth.

To be honest, I have read a lot and even most of the major Canadian coin errors found had been purchased by collectors in the US so how come they find our errors interesting but we don't?

Edit: Going back to the main topic I thank everyone for their opinions and replies regarding this coin as they are all appreciated, I will add that although it is a legitimate doubled die, to the best of my knowledge it probably wont catch a premium, maybe a few dollars above face value but nothing extravagant for any newcomers reading this.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Edited by JohnWayne007
12/30/2019 11:43 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4475 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2019  12:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
His parent was with him and was shocked by his bid but didn't want to make a scene, I would not have bid against a young collector at a club meeting and only if someone asks I wouldn't comment on value. Some of our best errors are in the US collectors due to exchange rates and the major auction houses are in the US. I have shared some really nice errors on this forum, never generated anything close to this topic. When you win a bid on like Heritage you have to add 70% to the winning bid to get the coin home as a Canadian.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
2816 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2019  06:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sorry if anything that I posted here was not clear or precise. The comments that I made in this thread (and others) is that posts concerning minor modern (50 years or less old) errors are inundating this Variety and Error" forum. I am not an error person by any stretch of the imagination .... I'm almost totally into Vicky large cent varieties, but have read a great deal about error and variety types. Kudos to you, Johnwayne007, John100, and Tanman for bringing your discoveries to light. I just thought, at the time, that the forum was being deluged with minor manufacturing defects being overly touted. I will stay out of the mainstream on these modern anomalies and remain in my own numismatic niche. Pardon me for overstepping my bounds ... I just wanted other folks to know the proper terminology and published research criteria that details exactly what the different types of varieties and errors were being displayed in highly magnified photos.
Valued Member
Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2019  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner, your opinions are always appreciated

I don't feel like you over stepped any, maybe just less clear than most of us could understand which is always a cause for confusion, so thank you for clarifying.

I totally understand we wouldn't want the forum to be flooded with a bunch of minor varieties and errors but if they are minor or confirmed I think they should still be written about. If you are like me and love to roll hunt I think having a wider area of things to look for is always beneficial. I would obviously hate to see someone new find a doubled die like this one and pay an arm and a leg thinking its a huge error when it is not or trying to charge people an arm and a leg to buy it from them.

I will say finding one in the wild is definitely a thrill all on its own and not easy to find and I believe other collectors that enjoy roll hunting would enjoy finding one of these (or any of my previously posted errors) big or small. It may not be worth anything to most collectors right now (completely priceless to me) but there is no telling on what the market will look like 20/50 even 60 years from now.

Canadian pennies are no longer being made, so any error big or small (as long as they are confirmed to be one) should always be saved from the melting pot and will always have the potential of eventually being worth a lot more (couple bucks) for those who like to buy/sell, maybe not anytime soon but later on in life there really is no telling.

Just to make myself clear, My posts are intended for roll hunters, and error guys that want something new to look for.

If there is anything I can do or add in my posts to not confuse newcomers I am all ears, the last thing I want is people to be mislead.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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