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How Far Back Can We Go? Sixth Edition!

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 Posted Yesterday   01:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, this is in my collection so I am the current caretaker. I would say scarce but not rare because they do come up for auction fairly regularly.

Edited by jgenn
Yesterday 01:30 am
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 Posted Yesterday   01:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply



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 Posted Yesterday   06:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Strong work today with that 8R @jgenn!

Here is a French Liard dated AD 1657:


"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted Yesterday   08:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@jgenn, what a super coin (Cromwell)! Recalling your collecting theme (and seeing a trace of the die crack?) I assume it's a crown.

@spence, looks like someone dropped a bowl of salad on Louis' crown Good thing the guillotine hadn't been invented yet.

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 Posted Yesterday   11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1657 -- Kingdom of France, 1 liard:





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Russian Federation
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 Posted Yesterday   6:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As usual, I apologize for the quality of this coin's photos, but when I tried later my results were even worse.
It's probably worth retrying on a sunny summer afternoon, but I don't expect any of those for at least a few months, so... yeah. (Also I don't even recall where the coin is right now.)

That aside, here's the photos I do have...



Elbing, Swedish occupation of, solidus, 1657.

Obverse: CAROL GVST D G R, crowned CG monogram within inner circle
Reverse: SOLIDVS PRVSSIAE 57, arms of Elbing in cartouche within inner circle

KM# 65 (listed as "rare" - no price given), Numista 96629 (rarity 95, and I see they've now conflated it with the other variety), Kopicki 9655 (R7, estimated 4-6 examples known)


Funnily enough, this coin was an unintentional cherrypick - I found it in a $7 bargain bin and decided that the legends ("what do you mean, Carl Gustav of Prussia?") looked weird enough to keep.

I have a few French liards from the 1650s as well, but none anywhere near as good as @Spence's example, none that I currently have pictures of, and (IIRC) none with a definite legible date and a definite legible mintmark.

And incidentally, @pepactonius - that's a really neat 3 pfennig! Most German states coins of that period (and of many other periods, and indeed most coins of other parts of Europe as well) have normal Roman lettering, so it's quite a surprise to see Fraktur-esque lettering like that. And the general style of that second side can't be very common either.
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 Posted Yesterday   7:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@j1m, I remember discussing that coin on the last edition of How Far Back.

This example sold at WCN in November for about $300. https://wcn.pl/archive/75_0185?q=polska+1657

Which makes that one heckuva cherrypick.


And thanks for putting words to the interesting features of @pepactonius' coin. I liked it, too.
Edited by tdziemia
Yesterday 7:46 pm
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 Posted Today  12H 47M ago  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Princetane to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1656, Time for my last coin - the famous Commonwealth Halfcrown




Jgenn showed us a beautiful milled coin of this era, but for most of the Commonwealth, this is what people used, hammered - Breeche's money named as the 2 shields looked like a pair of old breeched pants.

The coins had the value in Roman Numerals and low values like the 2d and 2d had "Charitie and Change" on them.

Although dated and used from 1649 to 1658, the mintmark was the sun on 1649 to 1657 coins and anchor on 1657 to 1659 coins.

The II.VI indicated it was a Halfcrown, this style was different from Royalist coins which had whole values in pence, so a Halfcrown was XXX.

I have a 1635/36 Halfcrown too, but this is only dated by mintmark, so it will not be shown in this thread.

This Commonwealth halfcrown is one of my favourites in my collection and considered quite scarce.
Loving Halfcrowns. British and Commonwealth coins 1750 - 1950 and anything Kiwi.
If it's round, shiny and silvery I will love it.
Edited by Princetane
Today 12H 20M ago
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 Posted Today  12H 47M ago  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Today's first coin (almost, Princetane was 1 second faster! ) is - another liard!

France 1656, Louis XIV, Limoges (I).



The first half of the 17th century saw a troublesome lack of small change, especially the liard (or 3 deniers), which hadn't been minted since 1601. So hundreds of millions of copper liards were minted 1655-58, in mints all across France. They had to last for nearly 40 years, the next batch didn't come until 1693.

The story about these liards is an interesting one. It wasn't the regular royal mints that performed this huge and time-limited operation. Instead, it was outsourced to an independent contractor (and a number of sub-contractors). The royal decree stated that the manufacturing should be completed in 2 years and 2 months (this was later prolonged), using 44 presses that should operate between 13 and 16 hours a day, depending on the time if the year. Temporary mints, separate from the royal ones, were set up in 12 different towns spread across the country. Each mint "lent" the mint mark of the nearest regular mint, so there are only 9 different mint mark letters. For instance, liards with mint mark A (ordinarily for Paris) were minted in nearby Corbeil. (Liards with mint mark I were actually minted in Limoges - which I stands for - but in a separate temporary mint.) The process was of course not without problems regarding logistics, delays, quality issues, and not least resistance from the regular royal mints. But in the end, more than 500 million liards were minted.
Edited by erafjel
Today 12H 45M ago
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 Posted Today  11H 29M ago  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Once we get back beyond the 1660s, I have very few dated coins...

Another French liard - this one has a B mintmark for Rouen:
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 Posted Today  7H 51M ago  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Another French liard - this one has a B mintmark for Rouen

The letter B was used by two temporary mints, Pont-de-l'Arche and Acquigny, both a bit south of Rouen. The documentation is a bit scarce, but your coin should be from Pont-de-l'Arche, having a dot after FRANCE (Acquigny placed a flower there). Minting began in Pont-de-l'Arche in 1655, but after the mint was pillaged (uncertain by whom) in February 1656, the minting was successively transferred to Acquigny.
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 Posted Today  7H 29M ago  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@erafjel, another great lesson in French numismatic history.

I am guessing that something similar was going on in Poland in the 1660s, when we saw all those small copper "solidi" last week. Sigismund III was a prolific coiner in all denominations until the mid 1620s, but his successor (Wladyslaw IV 1632-48) minted no coins smaller than a half thaler.
So perhaps there was a similar shortage, and a similar approach by Jan Kasimir (1648-68) when he minted those copper solidi between 1660 and 1666 in places that had never minted before: Ujazdow (basically Warsaw), Oliwa (near Gdansk), Brest and Kaunas.
Poland and France were allies in the 17th century, so maybe he even borrowed the idea directly.

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 Posted Today  6H 28M ago  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
your coin should be from Pont-de-l'Arche, having a dot after FRANCE

Thanks erafjel, fascinating!
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 Posted Today  3H 46M ago  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
but his successor (Wladyslaw IV 1632-48) minted no coins smaller than a half thaler
...aside from his brief stint as Tsar Vladislav Zhigimontovich of Russia in 1610-12, when he minted the appropriate Russian denominations (i.e. wire kopeks - don't recall if there's anything smaller than a kopek from his reign).

A bunch of Russian coins from the early 17th century are dated (this actually started a little earlier - the oldest dated issue is from 1596), but the coins of Vladislav in particular don't seem to be, so I'm not sure if we're going to see any in this thread. OTOH, apparently there's a bunch of under-year minting periods because the weight standards changed really fast and because the Novgorod mint only operated in his name for a few months.
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 Posted Today  2H 51M ago  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1656 -- Principality of Brunswick-Wolfenbuttel, 2 mariengroschen:



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