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Not Coin Specific, Why Do Some Sites Consider MD/DDD As "Double"

 
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Valued Member

Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2020  2:21 pm Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this topic Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I was just curious if anyone knew the answer to this, I have been on the hunt for genuine Doubled Dies on all denominations of Canadian coins which I have surprisingly been very fortunate and I am finding a lot of websites like Coins and Canada calling Machine Doubling and Die Deterioration Doubling "Doubled" and even ICCS grades some coins with the "Double" dates and other areas as doubled and even eBay seems to sell a lot of "Doubled" coins that we know as MD or DDD.

I ask because I'm sure for most new collectors it can be confusing, personally the only time "Double" should be used is if it was genuine hub doubling or double punched numbers and initials/letters.

The main reason I ask this is because I know on US coins if you tried to have a LMC graded with machine doubled date most TPG's would probably laugh and obviously not do it.

I guess the real question is why is MD and DDD being considered Doubled in the first place, I mean if anything shouldn't they be considered an Error, and not a variety? Personally if I purchased a coin with a "Doubled Date" I would want it to be a Genuine doubled die, not a MD Double.

I am bringing this up because I feel like before Canadian coins can be fully and truly appreciated for their errors and varieties much like the US we need to do some sort of cleanup of error and variety designations and start calling them for what they really are and not what we want them to be.


Just for visuals, here is a 1966 "Doubled Date" on eBay, that is clearly not a Doubled Die, yet ICCS has it as a "Double 1966" which obviously for a new collector would probably not know the actual difference and could spend more than they bargained for.

https://www.ebay.ca/itm/CANADA-5-CE...AOSwhe9eEgHD


I think if we continue to use the term "Double" and ICCS and other TPG's know that the "Double" they are looking at is not genuine hub doubling than they should put for example "Doubled 1966 - MD" or "Doubled 1966 - DDD" on the label so that it does not confuse collectors into spending more than they really should IMHO.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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United States
2826 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2020  2:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TPG's and vendor sellers will continue to call anything with the design on a coin with a slightly offset image on top of one another as "double" or "doubled", which is for the buyer or collector to figure out themselves. A "variety" is anything that was purposely put there by the mint, whether it is hub-doubled or repunched. Any offset images that are caused by the machines or adjustments being awry is an "error". If people bought the coin rather than the verbiage on paper and read all the Wexler (or other bible)explanations, then they all would be better off. I personally don't think that anything not seen with a 7X-10X loupe to be insignificant, wheter an error or variety.
Valued Member
Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2020  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree, wexlers and variety vista are both my go to as they both have fairly detailed photographs and information, I also agree that you should never buy a coin just for what a label says, you really should be able to know by your own judgment what the coin is or is not. But unfortunately we live in a day and age where everything being purchased is due to the fancy labels and not actually for its contents which is sad. I find these "Doubles" daily and all sorts of conditions but to me I just don't really see the point in them and I always end up scratching my head wondering why they are selling for so much when they are common, yet if someone found a genuine doubled die in the same denomination and in even better condition than the one that sold for a big amount, no one bats an eye all because of a label.

For example, the 1966 5 cent nickel I posted from ebay has what they call a "Double 1966" and they want over $400 for it, but if I went and posted a 1966 5 cent nickel from a mint set with genuine reverse hub doubling, date and all, you would be lucky if someone even looked at it. Obviously a seller can ask whatever they want and of course a collector can pay whatever they want, but I know personally as a collector I want genuine, just like the 1955 LWC, you want the genuine doubled die, not the "poor mans" double IMHO.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4477 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2020  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Doubling in Canadian coins rarely sells for great prices, only real double strikes do and other than the 1969 penny and 67 dollar and halfs will generate wicked prices. I see at shows where younger collectors get caught paying 200 bucks for a minor doubling of the letters and being told by the dealer it's a major error, it's not, try selling it a year latter, and dealers wouldn't have pages of them. You are also proving this point by be able to regularly finding these by roll hunting.
Edited by john100
02/26/2020 4:01 pm
Valued Member
Canada
462 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2020  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Check JohnWayne007's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the reply John100, you have a fair point. I'm really not big on the buy and sell aspect of the Canadian coins, I do sell some coins here and there but nothing for prices over $40 and usually only when I have two of the same coins and the price is normally fair for both parties, I just personally find it odd that when I am on eBay browsing around I see a lot of the more common errors and varieties being offered for large sums (regardless of sales confirmed) yet the genuine real errors and varieties being sold for less than $20 and thats normally with shipping included.

I did not intended for this conversation to turn into sales related but I focus a lot on Canadian and US small cents and have noticed that a genuine error/variety sells for a lot more on US coins and the lesser (Machine doubling, Die Deterioration Doubling) sells for pretty much nothing, yet a genuine error/variety on Canadian small cents sell for pretty much nothing and the lesser ,Machine Doubled or Die Deterioration Doubled sells for far more.

My view is I think the Canadian coin market has it a bit backwards and this is why our coins are not as sought after when it comes to collectors that collect genuine errors and varieties, a US coin collector wont pay a premium for a Machine doubled cent, but will for a genuine hub doubled cent, so why are Canadian collectors choosing to pay premiums for Machine Doubles instead of genuine hub doubled coins.


I understand at the end of the day people can purchase what they want for whatever price they want, but my question is what drives them to purchase them in the first place. Unless they really don't know how to tell the difference and a seller used that to their advantage, but even then if we want to grow I feel we need more honest legitimate resources.
They say coin roll hunting is like a box of chocolates, you never know what your gonna get.... I think it went something like that, I was too busy looking at coins.

This is my very first error coin I found that got me hooked.
- 1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4477 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2020  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is a simple way for error collecting, if you see the error and the word wow ! occurs now comes the difficult task of pricing it, just ask at shows,clubs, auctions although sometimes misleading. You seem to have realistic prices but many dealers do not, we just don't have a large enough base to drive an error to be popular unlike the US where many double dates are valuable. In the end usually price goes hand to hand to wow factor or coolness
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