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1652 New England 3 Pence?

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 Posted 04/22/2021  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'd do that, but I don't know how on here


1. Click on "switch to fully reply"
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3. Click on the format button that looks like a piece of paper with a red arrow pointing out of it
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 Posted 04/22/2021  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numisma to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You can also write "[quote ] ... [/quote ]" around the text. Remove the spaces- I added them so you would see the text.
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 Posted 04/22/2021  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to GrapeCollects: If the so-called "Experts" couldn't ascertain Genuine Mint Milling and Upsetting from Not The Real Thing, they should find new employment as they're not very good at this. I think if anyone "who knows what they are doing" had that coin for 10 minutes all doubt would have been erased. Weight, SG and SA would confirm % of Gold and other metal content. Die variety analysis would confirm that part. You'd probably "need one to counterfeit one", and that coin doesn't exist. Sounds like the last 1913 V nickel to pop-up (everyone thought it was lost in a car wreck, but it was in a closet all of that time). The people who had it just assumed that it was no good...
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/22/2021 9:12 pm
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 Posted 04/23/2021  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To Spence and Numisma: Thsnk You! I've got it now
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 Posted 04/23/2021  10:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add That Coin Dude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Whatdowehavehere:
Quote:
I think if anyone "who knows what they are doing" had that coin for 10 minutes all doubt would have been erased. Weight, SG and SA would confirm % of Gold and other metal content.

The coin has been In the US all of a few days. With a coin of this value, they cannot make any final judgements until 100% certain, which will take up to a few weeks alone, then comes cataloguing, which will also take time, especially since everyone was certain that only 1 of these still existed. And when they finish all of this, finalizing can take time to, verifying coins is a tedious process. Just because it would take you 10 minutes doesn't mean that is how long it will take.
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 Posted 04/23/2021  11:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ The Coin Dude, I believe whatdowehavehere was referring to the 1836 $2 he mentioned, not the OP's coin.

Getting a bit confusing
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 Posted 04/23/2021  11:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think @whatdowehavehere was referring to the 54-S. I had a similar reaction but then I read it again.

It's probably true for any authentication, but in this case it seems like not only do you have to prove it's real, if you're going to claim that it's counterfeit you have to provide compelling evidence for that as well. Saying that the punches seem fabricated, or that everyone you showed pics to laughed - that's not empirical evidence that it's fake. Be specific.



In these images, we have parts of both III punches. The upper left and right edges of the "cartouche" can be compared, as well as the top portions of III.

The upper left corner is not perfectly rounded, there is a little convex portion that both share. The left vertical border bows slightly inward towards the first I, which both share. The distance from the border to the top of I, as well as at the "bow" where the MHS example fades away, appear identical.

The top left border of the cartouche slopes gently upward. That and the distance to the top of I appear identical.

The right edge of the cartouche slopes toward the third I, and then near the bottom takes a sharp vertical turn downward. From the section that both examples share, this also appears to be identical.

Turning to the III, in the MHS example the second two I's appear to me to be badly damaged. Jack Howes, in the 2010 Colonial Newsletter I posted on a previous page, theorizes that the NE punch on the shilling was "lapped and recut twice". He then theorizes that there may have been two XI punches, with the A/B/C/D varieties having been reworked from two original dies. Something similar could have occurred with the threepence NE and III.

The most obvious thing to me about the two III examples is the similarity in the slopes and positions of the tops of the I's. The top of the first I has a distinct downward slope, a trapezoidal shape, which goes into a narrow neck and then flares outward. The top of the second I also slopes slightly downward, and the third I relatively level. The top left of the middle I is slightly above the top right of the first I, and the top left of the third I is similarly slightly above the top right of the second I. I find all these features on both examples to be nearly identical.

Do the I's "look" different? Yes, but again, I perceive the MHS punch to be fairly damaged.

So, the question as mentioned several times in this thread is: If this is a counterfeit, where did the faker get an example to replicate, and do it so precisely? The earliest publication of an image of the threepence is the plate in the 1863 Yale catalog, and then there is an early photo of the MHS coin from 1875. The Yale plate does not show all the details mentioned above for the III, and the tops of the I's are all level. If it's a modern counterfeit, did somebody create a III punch from the MHS images, and then make up the missing parts? Then purposefully stamp it weakly in the top right third? Then only make one of them? Then associate it with an old coin holder from 1798?

All these questions and more must be specifically answered in order to claim that it's fake. That's just my layman opinion on it.

Edited by kbbpll
04/23/2021 11:52 am
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 Posted 04/23/2021  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add That Coin Dude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
kbbpll: In general I agree, as I said noone can come to any conclusions until there is satisfactory knowledge and information.

As for the III punches, while yes, the 2 coins show 'different' I's, this can't be used to debunk this coin. If you compare the images, the right photo can be easily attributed to LDS, here I compared the 1st I's of both coins to demonstrate my point. As you can see, The angle and dimensions of the I's match perfectly. Just for reference, I overlayed the OP's coin over the MHS example, and vice versa, to allow visibility of the I's on top of one another.



My point in showing this is that this coin's accuracy is too great for a counterfeit, especially a modarn one. This coin IMO is either a counterfeit from the same time period or the real deal.

-TCD
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 Posted 04/23/2021  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll be Specific: Upon close pictoral exmination, I believe that the toning, damage and scratches are not that old. I believe that for a fact the edge cuts and spilts are contrived. Like the guy tying a Trout Fly: you have got to be reeeeeaaaalllly good at it to catch a fish. Since specs for the NE 3D are lost to Time; the First Thing you'd want to see is if the metallurgy (alloy) matches known specimens, or at least the Shillings. That's Step 1, the same as it would be for the 1854-S $5. That coin can be matched to a known die variety; not so with the OP's item, so you have to look beyond the pale, so to speak, and examine every sqmm of it. Has anyone ever heard of The Brewster Chair?
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/23/2021 9:29 pm
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 Posted 04/23/2021  9:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Specific example: The newish-looking scratch, seen on the reverse under the yellowish lump, has supposedly ancient toning going over it at the right and left (probable that, it can't be 100% affirmed with the pic) ends. The Trout won't bite.
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/23/2021 9:45 pm
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 Posted 04/23/2021  11:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add That Coin Dude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Whatdowehavehere: I see your point, but that doesn't discount it's genuinity...
Keep track of your collection: https://en.ucoin.net/?ref=Ux0E0if
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A friendly coin dude that is here for you! A coin collector from the Midwest USA.
I specialize in minting varieties and coin identification. I am online 3+ times every day for 6-12 hours.
My best US coin find: http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...IC_ID=387871
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 Posted 04/23/2021  11:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For all of you Kitchen Magicians out there: the brownish stain seen on both sides is immediately recognizeable as the result of the application of 14K Gold Test Acid and a little bit of spit (a Base) on a q-tip, and some Sulphur
Edited by whatdowehavehere
04/23/2021 11:54 pm
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 Posted 04/23/2021  11:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add whatdowehavehere to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to ThatCoinDude: I think you mean, the p-o-s-s-i-b-i-l-i-t-y of the OP's item to be Genuine. If no one can get the Spectral Analysis to match known Geniuine NE silver, I wouldn't hold out a lot of hope for it
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 Posted 04/24/2021  12:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ploopy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Larsjan, thank you for posting and continuing to document this coin and its journey! I'm sure the experts will be able to determine the authenticity in hand.
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 Posted 04/24/2021  01:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OP's XRF results are on Page 3. I think your mind is made up, but you have not addressed how anyone could fake a NE threepence so accurately. Are there any other fake NE threepence out there? This thread has been alive for over a year and no one here or anywhere else that I'm aware of has ever posted a fake NE threepence. Yet there are fake shillings and sixpence going back to the early 1800s. I've addressed specific features of the III punch and you're focused on how somebody could duplicate patina with spit and acid. Which is fine, we each have our opinions.
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