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1652 New England 3 Pence?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
3404 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add matthewvincent to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
larsjan, if you have not already done so you might want to contact the ANA
(American Numismatic Association) as a resource. They might have the
historical experience that you need to solve the mystery.
Brother, can you spare a "BARBER" dime?
Pillar of the Community
United States
1571 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  12:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would be wary of drawing any conclusion about a direct connection with John Quincy Adams or his personal collection. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quinc...tical_family
The "Quincy family" was large. There were 8 descendants of the original Quincy who were born around the time the 3 pence was minted, everyone in this period had lots of kids, by the time you went 3 more generations to the 1798 holder there could be a thousand people in the "Quincy family".

Can anyone say what the two letters to the left of the 1798 are? To me it looks like "La.", but all I can think of is "Ca." as an abbreviation for "circa".
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
3085 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Can anyone say what the two letters to the left of the 1798 are? To me it looks like "La.", but all I can think of is "Ca." as an abbreviation for "circa".
...Two letters? To me it's pretty clearly "Dec.", presumably abbreviating "December".
Pillar of the Community
United States
754 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  1:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoctorBurnzy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@january1may. He means the letters further to the left which looks like a clear "B. Ma." to me, but might not to someone else. But since John Hull married Judith in Boston Mass..and he's buried at the Granary cemetery(burying ground) in Boston..and other Quincy just above JQA were born or died in Boston..I'm going to stick with my assessment, but admit it may not be correct.
Edited by DoctorBurnzy
04/09/2020 2:18 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1571 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  2:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No, not the "B. Ma.". Directly left of 1798. I guess I can see it as "Dec."; previously I could only see "La.".
Pillar of the Community
United States
754 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoctorBurnzy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I see Dec....but now I can see the La
Pillar of the Community
Russian Federation
3085 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  2:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can see where the La comes from, but I still think Dec is far more likely, especially as it would be logical to put a month there.
Pillar of the Community
United States
754 Posts
 Posted 04/09/2020  2:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoctorBurnzy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agreed!
New Member
Netherlands
23 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  02:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add larsjan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it says Dec. from decemer.
I find it a bit depressing that the experts don't reply to my emails with my findings and seemingly don't want to start the discussion.
I wonder why? Don't they dare to judge it?
The expert I contacted initially thought it was a 19th century forgery, before I found the coin holder. Later I sent him the photo of the coin holder along with the information that you and I found, but had no response whatsoever. That's 3 days ago now. If they still think it's a forgery then that's fine and understandable but at least explain why.
I will now first contact the ANA, hopefully they can help me further.
I will also continue to search for companies that can test the coin again and also the coin holder, those companies are not so easy to find here in the Netherlands, unfortunately and I do not dare to send the coin and holder abroad for the time being.

Thanks everyone so far, I will keep working on it.
Valued Member
United States
196 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  05:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As I have stated before I know a specialist of this series that could properly authenticate it and value it on your behalf if its genuine. You would have to email me as he wishes for his info to remain private. He has worked with many great finds and collections.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1571 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  11:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NGC has an office in Munich. I realize that's a long trip.
I think someone mentioned contacting the Massachusetts Historical Society. They sold the Adams collection in 1971 so that's a long time ago but perhaps someone there could still help.
Stacks sold that collection, so they might be able to dig up something about this "Quincy family" collection. I can't find anything.
For authenticating the holder, I would skip the coin people and go to museums or rare document or rare book people. Someone with experience authenticating signatures etc.
I'm sure you've already thought of all this.
On the "experts" problem, in my observation some of them render an opinion and consider it done, and they also then get a lot of "no, you're wrong, it has to be real" type stuff and have a default reaction of ignoring that kind of followup.
Any luck contacting the person you bought it from?
New Member
United States
47 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  3:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sjkrose to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Having purchased several items from that sale in recent years... I do have a copy of the auction catalog which is dated 17-18 September 1971. Here's a image showing the hand written notes of the Adams inventory on English & Irish coins. The holder appears to be of a different hand...


Valued Member
United States
196 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A good point was made by one specialist that I talked to. He stated that (The Quincys knew what an NE coin was and wouldn't have called it "Silver token / Unknown." Josiah Quincy was collecting in the 1760s. John Adams owned several NE shillings and traded one ca. 1780. They knew the type well.)
Pillar of the Community
United States
754 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  5:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoctorBurnzy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice sjkrose......the holder maybe in someone else's hand added years later.....but now I'd be interested in seeing a sample of handwriting of other Quincy family members even though it may not have been done by the immediate family members of the Quincy's....I'd like to see examples of the Sewall''s or Sewell's handwriting as well, but if it was written by someone outside the family we may never know who wrote it...but that's only on the assumption that it's real. I'd love to see some of the coins he collected @sjkrose in its own post if you would't mind. This post has got me very curious on what he collected. In my mind I think he may have acquired a braided cent proof for a time even though it's not on the list. Lol. #DareToDream. Fantastic that you have some of his coins. I love the provenance there. Btw I just saw some John Adams letters and handwriting. It definitely wasn't done by him either.
Edited by DoctorBurnzy
04/10/2020 5:29 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
720 Posts
 Posted 04/10/2020  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joecoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, since we are speculating, how about handwriting samples from Crosby or any of the collectors that he borrowed coins from?
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