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1994 1 Cent Doubled Die Obverse

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 Posted 04/20/2020  03:57 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I thought I would share this recent find with you guys, I have been working on my Canadian small cent Doubled Die collection which has been moving along nicely and recently I had a chance to start looking through some more rolls to fill a couple of gaps from certain time periods.

I have found small cent doubled dies from the 1940's, 1950's, 1960's and 1970's and started working on the 80's and 90's, but what I had noticed is that after the 1970's for the Canadian Small Cents finding genuine doubled dies was almost impossible. For a bit there I just thought It wasn't going to happen, I thought maybe it had something to do with the mint making a lot of changes in 80s and 90's that made doubled dies less likely to make it out of the mint. Until I found this one, now some here may say this 1994 doubled die obverse is minor, but none the less it was extremely difficult to find, especially in this condition.

For those who may call out MD or DDD, this Doubled Die shows almost the exact type of doubling that can be found on the 2013 5 Cent Doubled Die Obverse shown in this post. http://goccf.com/t/369045&SearchTerms=2013


To start off here is a photo of the Reverse and Obverse, Followed by a photo of "GIN" from "REGINA" and the Beads, after that photo is every letter of "REGINA" blown up a bit so you can see the doubled devices.










Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Edited by JohnWayne007
04/20/2020 04:01 am
Bedrock of the Community
United States
39434 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  04:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like MD to me.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
Pillar of the Community
Canada
915 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  05:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Machine Doubling reduces the size of the devices, not makes them thicker... Although I respect your opinion John1, this is not MD by any means.

As you can see here, for comparison the "G" from "REGINA" on the 1994 DDO and a normal 1994 cent, on the 1994 doubled die you can clearly see that the device is normal in size (which is never the case in Machine Doubling) with a second "G" right underneath it, with the splits and all (which also don't happen with MD).


Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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 Posted 04/20/2020  08:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It doesn't look like DDO to me. I see no "notches" in the serifs. I'm really not an error guy that can delineate the difference between Die Deterioration and MD, cause it looks like a combination of the 2.
Valued Member
Canada
151 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  09:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numidan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
JohnWayne007, fought that battle, your are not going to win.

People are having a hard time realizing that the shape of the fonts used on Canadian coins are different than those on US coins. Thus, all definitions you will read online are based on US coins. Here is an example of one of those definitions:


reference https://www.errorvariety.com/OFD/MD.html

Now, if the font of the "O" were not rounded but mostly squared and flat, how would the doubling look like?
Edited by numidan
04/20/2020 09:03 am
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United States
39434 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
numidan,
Are you saying it is a DDO? Please explain in more detail,I want to learn.
John1
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
Pillar of the Community
5464 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add USSID18 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Apparently, very common on these things..

http://goccf.com/t/372216
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 Posted 04/20/2020  11:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not related to the British coins at all, different mints, different processes &c.

I think you are onto something JW007
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Valued Member
Canada
151 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  11:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numidan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is an image I used previously in an article I had written. It shows the different phases in production of die and coin. Take some time to examine the resulting cutout views of the reliefs.

Hope this helps.



What the other person is showing is DDD which is not what I am seeing on 1994 penny!
Edited by numidan
04/20/2020 11:35 am
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Canada
915 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Im not sure how many times I have to say it to be honest, but it seems like no matter how many times we go down this rabbit hole the outcome ends up being the same, the devices on Canadian Small Cents are generally FLAT, meaning whatever doubling you see on them, will in fact be "Flat" and somewhat shelf like, Canadian Small Cents are completely different than that of the US Lincolns, Rounded devices on a US genuine DDO = Rounded Doubling, Flat Devices on a Canadian genuine DDO = Flat Doubling.

Example, the 1965 5 Cent DDR

The "5" is clearly doubled and looks Flat, as you see there is a split



Now here is an example of the 2013 5 Cent DDO that was Also verified in the past as well.






Now again here is the photos from the 1994 DDO, as you can see this "I" in "REGINA" is almost Identical to the "I" on the 2013 DDO.




I completely understand to some that I am still fairly new here, but I can honestly say my main focus for the past few months (daily) has been specifically on the small cents, I spend roughly 5 to 6 hours a Day looking through small cent rolls, I have seen PLENTY of Die Deterioration and Machine Doubling to know the difference and this 1994 is neither MD or DDD, this post was not meant for "Clarification" as I am certain, it was merely a gesture of good will in order for those who search small cents to have something new to look for.

But along with that I knew there would be some skepticism, I just hope one day others will begin to realize the work I have done in order to bring theses finds into light so they can enjoy them for what they truly are, and not what others don't want them to be.

And to clarify, this was never a "Battle" to begin with, no battle, no fight, simply a guy on a mission to have a really nice collection of genuine doubled die small cents with a passion and a good eye for detail.
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
Pillar of the Community
Canada
915 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  2:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have taken the time to show the difference between Machine Doubling, Die Deterioration Doubling and Genuine Doubled Dies on the Canadian Small Cents.


Machine Doubling will make the Devices and Beads Smaller than the original size of the devices. If you look to where the Arrows are pointing you will see where the Devices have been Reduced in size due to Machine Doubling.








These following photos are of Canadian small cents showing Die Deterioration Doubling, when DDD happens the devices do look thicker (like that of a Genuine Doubled Die) BUT with more of a "Sliding" motion, as you can see on the Beads as well, they look to be enlarged and sliding. On the 1967 showing Die Deterioration Doubling in the date, you can see it just looks like a mess.






Now here we will see images of Genuine Doubled Dies, if you look closely at the Beads, you will notice no movement at all compared to Machine Doubling or Die Deterioration Doubling, you will also notice that ALL devices are enlarged as they should be for Genuine Doubled Dies, When a coin bares Machine Doubling the devices become Smaller than what they are suppose to be, which none of these Doubled Dies are showing.







As you can see the 1941 DDO almost looks "Shelf Like" and "Flat" but if you look, you can clearly see a split in the bottom of the "R" and if you want to look more into the 1941 you can look on this post which shows more photos. http://goccf.com/t/367977


So again, looking at this Photo of the 1994, you will see there is NO movement in the Beads, and the Devices are enlarged, like that of a Genuine Doubled Die, and not "Reduced" in size like what you would see if it were Machine Doubling, and I'm sure as you can see Die Deterioration is completely out of the question.




and here is a GIF Overlay with a normal 1994 cent and the 1994 doubled die. They may not be 100% lined up perfectly but it is close enough to see the obvious difference, MD would not look like this, and neither does Die Deterioration.

The Only plausible conclusion is a Doubled Die Obverse.






Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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9743 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This one is really tough, because the obverse legend has rounded letters and no real pointy serifs to make this easy. Secondly, at what magnification does a variety, any variety for that matter, no longer become of interest to a wider audience? I used to do this with nickel dollars, but gave up because it was almost impossible to differential the three type of doubling, especially when two or more are occurring together. I do know this - if you find anything like this on the date, people will take note. For some reason, Canadian collectors are fixated on anything to do with the date (Hans Zoell recorded tons of "recut" dates, so did Christian Houle), from Machine Doubling to dots, Canadians love anything to do with the date...


Quote:
...simply a guy on a mission to have a really nice collection of genuine doubled die small cents with a passion and a good eye for detail.


Therein lies your passion for the hobby. US Lincoln collectors have been busy at this for some time, and I think it simply was not something that Canadian collectors have taken an interest in, which explains some of your discoveries - nobody else bothered to look that closely.

If you are a member of CONECA, their journal Errorscope, often has a number of double die articles from coins around the world. There are also some very good experts in this sort of thing as well in their membership, whom might be able to help you with sorting some of these out, or even publish your finds in Errorscope.

I admire your patience, I am always searching BU rolls and mint bags, but if I can't pick something out in 5 seconds or less with a 10x loupe, then I move on to the next coin... but don't let me or anyone else keep you from fuelling your passion - keep up the hunt!!

PS - great photos too!!

"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 04/20/2020  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I realized my last post was ambiguous in terms of what I think... for now, I am on the fence.

I would need to see more of these, preferably in mint state condition, with the exact same die doubling - that would definitely be a characteristic of a doubled die - that same die would have imparted the same doubling on a good number of coins, like the 1967 DDO. Other types of doubling sometimes vary in where and how much you see doubling (e.g., progressive).
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
915 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  3:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the reply Roger, I completely understand that it is not everyones cup of tea when it comes to minor doubled dies, not to mention the size of a Canadian small cent makes it that much harder to find and study.

But I personally don't mind doing the work, I have somewhat of a routine when I look through the small cents and I find it easier for me to use my Microscope and just pass each coin under it kind of like an assembly line while checking the obverse and reverse, it is easier on my eyes and I tend to catch things (like this) that some may miss using a loupe.

I also understand that most collectors prefer to use a loupe in general because if you cant see it with one than its probably not that big of a deal, I have not checked this with my loupe yet so I cant really say for certain if its noticeable or not but as far as I'm concerned if people are doing it with the US Lincolns, we should be doing it with the Canadian small cents as well, to me a Variety is a Variety, big or small and should have the proper attention.

I have a bunch more rolls to look through and I'm setting all my 1994's aside so I can look for a second one and I will post back with the results if I manage to, however you are correct, the font used on the legend of the obverse is very well rounded witch does make it harder to tell if there are split serifs or not but the doubling on this coin looks far to clean to be Machine Doubling or Die Deterioration, and thats just my opinion.

I will look into CONECA as I am not a member, but it may be something I can benefit from regarding my research as it may be silly to some, but I do take it seriously, I feel like someone has to and I enjoy it.
Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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9743 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2020  4:10 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
...as far as I'm concerned if people are doing it with the US Lincolns, we should be doing it with the Canadian small cents as well, to me a Variety is a Variety, big or small and should have the proper attention.


In principle, I agree with you. The main problem with this is we simply do not have the same collector base as the US. Go to a major US coin show and it will fill an entire NHL sized arena. Then go to Torex or Coin Expo and you'll see a massive difference in terms of collector interest, dealers, resources and the sheer number of those who collect coins. Check out the modern varieties and errors subforum for US coins here on CCF, and you'll see more posts there on this topic in a single week than in this forum in a year.

When I used to do coin shows, I hardly ever sold a variety or minor error, even in mint state condition. I even stopped bringing modern (post-1967) coins to shows. If it is not in Charlton or Trends, some collectors just don't want it. That said, eBay however, is an entirely different venue, where there is some interest in this stuff, up to a point. So you might have better reception to an online collector base than just a Canadian collector base. For me, I measure success of a new variety if I know others get out there to look for it...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 04/20/2020  8:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The main problem with this is we simply do not have the same collector base as the US.


I can most certainly agree to this, if this was a 1994 Lincoln cent I'm sure I would be getting a lot of replies in the US section, I venture into that part of the forum frequently and I've seen it first hand, I do understand the US has a different outlook on numismatics when it comes to varieties and errors compared to Canada.

What drives me to keep looking, is I got tired of looking for the same things over and over that everyone is easily finding, so I started looking into the ones that either no one knew existed or ones that are hard to find.

I'm a sucker for Doubled Dies, if most of the Canadian collectors like and prefer the Die Deterioration "Doubles" over genuine than that is fine with me, everyone has a preference, but a decade or so down the line when Genuine doubled dies (even minor ones) like the ones in my collection become scarce and almost non existent while the Die Deterioration doubles become extremely common like they already are, I will be a happy camper.

Simply put, it's not about how much of a premium they demand, or if they are worth anything. These are priceless to me, I just want to have a nice collection of doubled dies, not machine doubles or Die Deterioration doubles, but genuine doubled dies and share my finds so that like minded collectors if they choose, can find them too.


Aggressively searching Canadian Small Cents on a daily basis since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 George VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/373627
1970 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDR http://goccf.com/t/364301
1989 Belize 25 Cent's with a Doubled Die Reverse http://goccf.com/t/362747
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