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Counterfeit Toonies Are Going To Be A Significant Problem

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Canada
449 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2021  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Check unruhjonny's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add unruhjonny to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have kept quiet about this for a while, and watched the discussion just to see where the it lead;
Unfortunately I believe the last several posts to be the truth.

The catch-22 is that three fold on this one;
1) if you examine your change, and realize you have a counterfeit coin, legally you are supposed to turn it into the RCMP(ect), and that's at your expense.
2) if you knowingly spend counterfeit currency, according to the laws in our country, you have committed a crime.
3) as mentioned earlier, banks don't even want to get involved, and would rather not know about any counterfeit coins in their rolls (because if it seems to have within reason come from rolls you have purchased from them, they are have to eat the loss).

I have understood that banks will just toss the offending coin in the trash, and call it a loss.
I am sure the RCMP would do much the same, unless a locality was seeing a glut of them.

I love coin roll hunting, and to that extent I used to go to a couple banks semi-regularly to get rolls. Between teller managers giving me grief about not having extra rolls on hand for anyone other than their regulars, and then having to go back because some worthless foreign coin was tucked in the roll, I haven't gone roll hunting in a couple years.

As to the silly comment about American currency in pocket change, it's just that, a poor/silly example.

If you chose to accept the coins handed to you as change at a transaction, that's on you. In the case of American currency, which is worth more than ours, accepting theirs at face seems to be a no-brainer to me (especially if you would regularly go stateside where you can spend it at above par).

I for one do not like ARP;
but this is the only answer to the fake pre-security coins out there - much like what the UK did with their fake pound coins.

Then again, when the mint can create a $2 coin that costs them $0.03*, then obviously some entrepreneurial criminal would see that as easy pickings.

I think, and am sure many of you agree that it would be in Canada's best interest if the RCM or someone in a joint effort with the RCM was to create a press conferance to alert people, and hopefully get the fake coins out of circulation, but that scenario not withstanding, as a coin roll hunter all you can do is remove the coins from circulation.

PS = about the "*", several years ago the mint fed us a line of BS that said pennies were costing them in excess of $0.03/each to manufacture, but now they are telling us a coin of what six times the mass, which involves plating of two separate planchettes costs the same?
I really hate our current, worthless steel currency. I would like us to get back to using currency that has some intrinsic value.
If copper is so valuable, why not make one or two dollar coins out of it - if the base metal is worth enough compared to the spending power, surely that would deter would-be criminals from manufacturing this garbage... otherwise, what stops them from trying to emulate the RCM.
Still lamenting the passing of our penny;
Hopefully I'll be passing the bug onto the next generation.
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Canada
4673 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2021  4:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
On the 2013 RCNA tour of the Winnipeg mint, I asked what it cost to create a loonie, after the guide went and asked a senior mint personal, it was 13 cents, the employees are well paid and should be. You really can"t expect cashiers, tellers, and the public to be counterfeit experts, it is the RCM"s job
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Canada
627 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2021  2:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wilsonwu89 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Staff edit - post removed at user request
Edited by wilsonwu89
01/31/2021 2:34 pm
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Canada
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 Posted 01/31/2021  2:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This sounds like a good reason to use my credit/debit card.
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Canada
627 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2021  05:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wilsonwu89 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Staff edit - post removed at user request
Edited by wilsonwu89
02/01/2021 05:48 am
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8280 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2021  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wilsonwu89, have you contacted the RCMP with this information? Or Brinks?
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Canada
627 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2021  2:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wilsonwu89 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We caught a woman attempting to use a roll of these coins at the retail store I work at this week. A supervisor came to me and asked me if these coins looked counterfeit. I told her, they're all more than 15 years old yet look brand new and look somewhat off. What do you think? lol

Yes, all the coins were counterfeit.

So we confronted the woman and said these are counterfeit. Either provide your name for us to return the coins to you or we seize the coins and forward them to the local police. The woman started shaking and looked nervous and agreed to provide her name. But when we demanded to see her ID to confirm, she refused so we seized the money as evidence and she left hastily.

Having worked in retail for years and being used to people trying to steal and scam, you get to know how guilty and innocent people react. She was absolutely guilty. If she were innocent, she would have fought until she was blue in the face that these coins were genuine. She also lied and stated she collected these coins from multiple sources in change over time to form a roll, which is statistically impossible because they were all the same quality and fake.

So definitely the origins as to where these fake coins are being pumped into circulation is in York Region/Northeast Toronto. Both instances of people using multiple rolls of these coins to pay for large purchases have been Asian like myself. Perhaps these coins are being pumped out of China online just like silver maple leaf bullions?

It is awareness like this that is needed to stamp out these coins. Everyone at my store is aware of these counterfeit coins and therefore anyone attempting to pay in large quantities of toonies is easily scrutinized, identified, captured on camera and reported to police. But media seems unwilling or uninterested in reporting on these coins. Perhaps at the request of police? Maybe they are investigating? I don't know.
Edited by wilsonwu89
02/20/2021 3:13 pm
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Canada
5535 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2021  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mcshilling to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How many rolls did she have and what year?

Good catch.
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Australia
18130 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2021  4:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Perhaps the Canadian Government could consider withdrawing the Toonie, and issuing co polymer plastic Two Dollar Notes instead.
The Notes would have a far greater range of security features.
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Canada
627 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2021  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wilsonwu89 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@mcshilling
They were multiple dates and the exact same counterfeits as previously reported. 1996, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2006.

I just want to see these people get taken down. I mean. It's not hard to find them. Just inform all bank branches to be on the lookout for anyone depositing a sizeable amount of toonies (especially York Region/Scarborough). No one, not even a big business, would need to deposit a sizeable amount of toonies. If anything, big and small businesses need toonies to make change and they instead deposit their big bills for the week.

it's hilarious how absolutely paranoid I've made all my coworkers I work with. But it's clearly worked because we've caught one on camera now.

-----

We already had $2 banknotes in Canada in the 1990s. They were removed for the more durable toonies in 1996. They further redesigned the toonie with anti-counterfeiting security features in 2012.

What probably needs to happen is a recall of all 1996-2011 pre-security toonies.
Edited by wilsonwu89
02/20/2021 5:17 pm
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Canada
460 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2021  04:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsnpaper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good for you! I inform all the stores that I deal with on a regular basis about these, and I live in BC. Were the rolls in the plastic "coffin" holders? What are the edges of the coins like? The 2004-2005 Montreal issues has rifling all around the coins, and then some of the areas filed down (visibly). I have not heard any information about the rims of the current "issues" of counterfeits.
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9553 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2021  11:33 am  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A few have resurfaced in Ottawa... I have one and intend to take it apart and analyze it, as soon as my building and labs are reopened (been working at home).

Of course, analytical data relies on statistics, which means I'll eventually need a decent sample set, preferably of different dates. Roll hunting continues here...
"Discovery follows discovery, each both raising and answering questions, each ending a long search, and each providing the new instruments for a new search." -- J. Robert Oppenheimer

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