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Post Your Contemporary Counterfeit Coppers!

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Valued Member
Canada
90 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2020  3:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a Simian George II Halfpenny that I found on eBay recently. Interesting 1733/77 overdate in a late die state.

Anton-Kesse 49, George II Simian Family 5 - 33A


Also grabbed this remarkably crude-looking counterfeit dated 1734(?). Appears to be cast, but with touch-ups to the devices? If anyone could provide any further insight it would be much appreciated.
Valued Member
United States
68 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2020  8:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sjkrose to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
blargish
Your Simian George II Halfpenny is actually dated 1733/73. Here's a copy of the reverse plate coin from the book. Also a closeup showing the date area.

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9121 Posts
 Posted 11/12/2020  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@blargish, I have a Jervis (as IERVIS) somewhere but can't find it at the moment.

IIRC Atkins glossed your above GIII type as "BITIT" for the rev. legend but I think BRITI is more likely as you state...

The "British Tars" were also popular subjects for Conder tokens of the era, and one area I would love to explore is linkages between those two series.

I have always liked the evasive issues more than the straight counterfeits, but they are correspondingly scarcer.

Here is a 1771-dated evasive halfpenny
Atkins 361 (IIRC)
GREGORY. III. PON. / BRITAIN RULES.




A dateless, buttonholed Farthing
GIII style bust, very worn and obviously used!
Atkins 467 identifiable by legends:
GEORGE RULES / BRITANNIAs / (in ex) ISLES
The S in ..IAs is superscript



Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 11/12/2020  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also, that's a lovely example of the 1733/73. I should be so lucky as to find one in that nice of a shape "in the wild!"
Longhorn Coins & Exonumia
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Valued Member
Canada
90 Posts
 Posted 11/13/2020  6:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for the clarification sjkrose! You wouldn't happen to be the author of that chapter in the book, would you? I think I'm starting to put it together with all the spectacular examples you've been showing us!

paralyse, I share your interest in the evasive issues although they are a relatively new avenue of exploration for me. You're right regarding Atkins' reading of the reverse legend as BITIT. Here's a closeup of the previous example I posted that shows the "R" of "BRITI" pretty well.



I also have this well-traveled counterfeit George III 1/2d, which I find interesting due to apparent similarities with Wood 33 (especially on the obverse). To what degree this is a function of wear versus actual similarity of design, I cannot say.
Valued Member
United States
68 Posts
 Posted 11/14/2020  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sjkrose to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
blargish
Awe, Yes I am! I hope you enjoy the book! If you need anything or have question please feel free to contact me!

Rickie
Valued Member
United States
169 Posts
 Posted 11/16/2020  12:00 am  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Alfred is back!

I just tripped over this one on eBay and immediately recognized it as closely related to one of blargish's early contributions to this topic, back in August. That Alfred can be visited here: http://goccf.com/t/380741#3267539.

For anyone who might be interested in this one, no action yet, hammer falls tomorrow, starts at US $9.99. Just search on item #393009618238 on any eBay page.

So, Atkins 2:


"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
Valued Member
United States
169 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2020  11:43 pm  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

I managed to find a few more evasions while rummaging through "the vault" recently. I'll post the one I can't identify first, a farthing with almost no legend left on the obverse.

Atkins didn't include this one, but then his catalog was based on what he'd managed to collect or to eyeball in other collections he'd visited. Cobwright or another modern cataloger may have noted this piece?

I find the civilian portrait particularly appealing...looks just like my pandemic hairstyle!


"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
Valued Member
United States
169 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2020  12:24 am  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Back on September 3rd, in this thread, ryurazu pondered the civic downside of widespread coinage debasement:

Quote:
i always wonder if people would have gotten angry at receiving money like this even back then? I know you be angry at getting fake silver, but when it fake copper I wonder if people would get angry when they traded it for like a bar of soap.

Evidently enough folks in Pennsylvania got angry that their "Supreme Executive Council" enacted a ban of evasions and non-regals! Here's their President's 1781 proclamation on the topic:



I found that a long time ago in Sylvester Crosby's 1878 work, now available online, of course:


"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
Valued Member
Canada
90 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2020  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Daltonista, that is an Isaac Newton farthing. I looked it up in Dalton and Hamer and it's listed as D&H Middlesex 1163. The series spans numbers 1151 to 1163 and shows a wide range in workmanship, with the crude varieties likely being imitations. Pretty neat, as it seems Isaac Newton was at one point Master of The Royal Mint!

Here is another evasion pickup of mine, Atkins 391. With the exception of the dot after 1771, this one stood out to me as the reverse is akin to that of a contemporary (facsimile) counterfeit. I wonder if an example exists of this reverse paired with a contemporary counterfeit George III obverse die.

Valued Member
United States
169 Posts
 Posted 12/14/2020  11:59 pm  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Way to go, blargish! It never crossed my mind that I should have been looking at D&H...or that the "Ic" fragment of legend might have been an abbreviation for "Isaac."

Browsing at the photos in my D&H, I agree that it's 1163...the long nose is the clincher. Thanks for identifying it for me!

Meanwhile, here's one I'm sure is an evasion piece, as it's listed everywhere as Atkins 373. I can't find a clue anywhere as to possible hidden meanings in those legends, so it's obviously all nonsense and confection, designed only to deceive the illiterate.

Dated 1776, it reads:
Obv: GRUM'RUIS. ITI NEX
Rev: HIRARMIA



"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
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United Kingdom
513 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2020  3:55 pm  Show Profile   Check PaddyB's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I found this amongst a job lot of mostly junk coinage. My immediate thought was "Evasion", but I can't find it in the list? Seems to have Brutus in the legend, but I can't find one with an undated Britannia reverse without a legend. Maybe a Conder token instead?

Valued Member
United States
169 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2020  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Check daltonista's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add daltonista to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Hi, Paddy --

That's one of the British Copper Company's 1811-12 tokens almost arbitrarily assigned by Davis to Walthamstow, Essex. Withers draws a different conclusion, based on the vast quantities minted and their broad geographical distribution: "...they were circulated, by and large, in London and perhaps Swansea, as well as to pay the workers at Landore and Walthamstow.""

These were catalogued by Davis as 30-33, and now as Withers 618-625. See your Tokens 1 book from Galata, just ahead of the evasions.

I know you didn't ask, but my database shows I need only W623 to make it a complete set. A couple of the varieties are pretty scarce, especially in EF or better, so collecting them seems to be a never-ending project...but you have to be willing to devote considerable time to distinguish some of them from the others, so subtle are some of the diagnostics. Not for the impatient.

At the moment my tokens and I are nowhere near one another, so I'll resort to pasting in a pretty good example from the British Museum!

Happy Holidaze, everyone!


"I ain't good-looking, but I'm willing to try."
--- Dave "Snaker" Ray: 'It's All Right,' 1963
Valued Member
Canada
90 Posts
 Posted 12/18/2020  8:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add blargish to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Daltonista, glad to have helped with the Newton farthing. I've only recently started delving into British provincial (Conder) tokens and I'm afraid that I may never escape the vortex! I am blown away by the links between all the series. I recently grabbed a Conder token (D&H 14a Hampshire) with ties to the evasion series, only to find that its reverse is linked with the obverse of an evasion copper that happens to be the prototype of the Wood 33 Blacksmith token; lo and behold I've gone full circle back to my Canadian colonial roots!

And to boot, your GRUMRUIS evasion happens to be referenced in McLachlan's Canadian Numismatics (1886) as a footnote to the entry for (what was yet to be called) Wood 33. Given that Atkins does not list a "Grumruis III Rex", I can only believe that McLachlan is mentioning the very piece that you posted, or its counterpart Atkins 372.


Also of note is that McLachlan, over 130 years ago, held the (now generally accepted) view that Wood 33 was an imitation of an evasion copper.

Also, to me PaddyB's Brutus token is reminiscent of the style of the Columbia farthings... a series which I also know nothing about!
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
513 Posts
 Posted 12/19/2020  02:07 am  Show Profile   Check PaddyB's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add PaddyB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ah! Thanks Daltonista for the solution. I had checked the Evasions and also the non-local tokens, but after that, with no wording to go on, was stuck as to which county to search in thereafter.
Sadly it does not appear rare and in that condition has very little collector's value.

I return to the hunt.
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