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CCl Secure's Charlie Chaplin Note Introduces The Cinema Security Feature For Guardian Polymer Note

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1321 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Check walk2dwater's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add walk2dwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
DO NOT HIRE ME TO CREATE IT FOR YOU!


- what a hilarious conclusion 'Nells250'

When I first got back into collecting 20 years ago, they had introduced a new series here in Canada, called the "Journey" series in 2001. I remember thinking that these new notes were kind of cool. It was the 1st time that the printers recorded the year the note was printed:
http://www.banknote.ws/COLLECTION/c.../CAN0102.htm
Why did I like these? Well, because I noticed a lot of new security features & how quickly they wore down. They became limp & circulated like no other. The BOC were experimenting with a new combo of cotton-paper rag & it just was a big flop. or 'fail.' So I concluded that these notes were going to be tough to find in UNC. [Not true/10,000,000 for each prefix] That was my 'green-behind-the ears' take on things. The bigger problem with the new Journey $10 (& to a lesser degree $5) was that they were being photocopied & the copies were fooling everyone. It got so bad that the printers had to incorporate a new security strip & revise all versions from 2004 onwards. So, as they were phased out, I got lucky by tucking away a few of the tough prefixes (which quickly rose in BV).

I remember finally getting the nerve to go to a show & actually participate in this fun hobby I was getting reacquainted with. I met with a group (about a dozen who knew each other from online participation) of collectors & we had lunch together. An 'old timer' looked at me and asked, "you're not collecting those crap new Journey notes are you?!" He hated the new Journey series. He thought the designs were atrocious. I remember gulping hard & replying, "only a few," or something like that. This guy hated the new insert replacements too (no X/no designation) & laughed at us when we suggested polymer was around the corner.

Anyway, my point is, you're right & hopefully the BEP will continue to use paper.

However, it just isn't as secure as polymer (& never will be). It's like comparing a calculator to a computer. Perhaps lack of the use of cash will keep paper going (until we become cashless).

I honestly HATED our polymer when it first came out but now I'm sort of getting used to it. I noticed a huge drop in the # of collectors (just not interested in plastic currency). But I have also noticed a LOT of new young collectors arrive on the scene. And women (which is great). With time we must embrace change. That's just the reality of it.
Edited by walk2dwater
05/14/2021 5:13 pm
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United States
100662 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  5:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Perhaps lack of the use of cash will keep paper going (until we become cashless).


As much as I want them to get rid of the one dollar note, too, I do not see it happening before we go completely cashless.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1321 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  5:48 pm  Show Profile   Check walk2dwater's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add walk2dwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As much as I want them to get rid of the one dollar note, too, I do not see it happening before we go completely cashless.

- you know what? I actually highly doubt we'll become "cashless." If bitcoin can survive with a dozen (or more) copycats, why can't credit, cash & digital currency all cohabitate? There really is no good reason to start thinking in terms of dichotomies (that 1 must replace the other) when it comes to currency.

Even, the BOC did a study & concluded that cashless commerce has always been the bulk (80% or more) of transactions & it was in the best interest of CDN citizens to keep cash options for the public (especially in case of a crises & for minority populations). They looked to Sweden & their near-cashless experiences.

There is absolutely no credit to the theory that cash fosters organized crime. This is just one more farfetched hypothesis kicked around by the Better-than-cash Alliance (equally stupid/unscientific as cash helps spread Covid-19).
https://www.betterthancash.org/

BTW & FYI: there is no billionaire-propped up lobby group supporting the use of cash.
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  5:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add currencyden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm really enjoying this topic which has morphed into "what do you like & collect - paper or plastic" - kinda like the bag boy at the grocery store (back when there WAS such a person).
There are/were some alternatives:
1) Domtar (Canada) produced a plastic sandwich substrate - paper/polymer/paper called Luminus. You could still have intaglio printing, yet have watermarks with color! Canada used it for a series & didn't tell anyone. VERY expensive now in UNC condition. Here's one I got from a production manager at Domtar.




2)LandQart produces a sandwich now called Durasafe (not to be confused with Silba (Canda) Duranote which is polymer only). Oddly, NOT as good as Luminus. The polymer layer is added in liquid form, so no colored images available, though you can have a solid color. Here's a recent Orell Fussli test note made with this substrate (test notes are MY THING).





3) Louisenthal (G&D's paper mill company) produces a product called Hybrid. It doesn't have layers, but areas that are paper & other areas that are polymer. You can have clear windows with or without features embedded in it. Here's yet another test note made of Hybrid substrate. The last pic is a closeup of the polymer part on the reverse.





There's a great virtual reality app for this note.

I must driving the rag collectors CRAZY by now, so I will quit.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1321 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  6:08 pm  Show Profile   Check walk2dwater's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add walk2dwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You could still have intaglio printing, yet have watermarks with color! Canada used it for a series & didn't tell anyone. VERY expensive now in UNC condition. Here's one I got from a production manager at Domtar.


Are you referring to the GOG Birds $5.00 test note? (100.000 were printed between 0100000 to 0199999). Very few exist now b/c nobody knew what they were up to....
Bedrock of the Community
United States
11025 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really cool stuff, currencyden! Thanks for sharing that with us.

Personally I don't mind polymer notes and love having them in my collection along side of the traditional paper/linen/rag notes. I am an equal opportunity banknote enjoyer.

And yes, this is a fun topic.
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add currencyden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes indeed,the unknown but now expensive Canadian GOG series! $15,000 in AU condition.


I mentioned the Lebanon 100,000 Livre is the first note to use the Cinema security feature? I bought many of the IBNS Bank Notes of the Year nominees for a presentation I gave this month. I didn't even look up this note. After all, the exchange rate is $65+. That would mean an UNC note about $90 or so.
WRONG! I DID buy one this week in UNC condition for $20! They are averaging $20-$30 each. The exchange rate is $65, but the actual black market value is $11.11. Kinda like North Korea Won notes. That would make a good topic - Name countries & rates with fixed exchange rates greatly differing from their actual value.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4732 Posts
 Posted 05/14/2021  9:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello Currencyden, is there a way to find out if a note is made of Luminus substrate, like using UV lights or other methods ? Thanks
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2021  12:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add currencyden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Hello Currencyden, is there a way to find out if a note is made of Luminus substrate, like using UV lights or other methods ? Thanks

Not that I am aware of. The problem is the outside layers front & back are regular banknote paper. They do not have florescence properties from the paper. The ones I own also have intaglio printing.
I own 3 of the 5 different types attributed in my catalog (there are 10 sub varieties). The one shown earlier I have not seen offered - ever, except mine from the Domatar manager.
This one is interesting. The UV image is not from the surface layer, but the polymer layer in the middle!




On this one you can see Goethe as a colored watermark, visible from both sides of the note. There's a maiden watermark version of this note as well.




The Canada $5 note is limited to the GOG 0100000 to GOG 0199999 serial numbers, 100,000 in all.

One COULD cut a Luminus note open, revealing the polymer core, but rendering the note vastly reduced in value.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1321 Posts
 Posted 05/15/2021  09:42 am  Show Profile   Check walk2dwater's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add walk2dwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Yes indeed,the unknown but now expensive Canadian GOG series! $15,000 in AU condition.


Just to clarify: 99.9% of the GOG prefix on the Birds $5 are non-test (lower than 100,000 & higher than 200,000 are made with regular paper/ no polymer substrate or test composition).

From what I heard: the AU note in question was given to a man who's mother worked at a bank (out east- likely Halifax, NS). She often exchanged any nice UNC banknotes that she came across and left the stack of Fives to her son after she retired.

The GOG test note was one discovered in the stack. I remember seeing it & speculating with some collector friends what it would fetch before that auction. That is the note that sold in 2013 through Geoffery Bell Auctions (& honestly I thought it went for a bargain price). It's hard to tell the GOG from the others & perhaps that is why it went for a low bargain price. Only a handful have been recovered & that is the best example.
Edited by walk2dwater
05/16/2021 08:54 am
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 05/16/2021  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add currencyden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Just to clarify: 99.9% of the GOG prefix on the Birds $5 are non-test (lower than 100,000 & higher than 200,000

Yes, I mentioned the serial number ranges on the post before yours - GOG 0100000 to GOG 0199999.
99.9% not Luminus? I believe the math for this is 99% not Luminus or 1% Luminus, not 1/10th%.
9,999,999 x 1% = 100,000
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United States
100662 Posts
 Posted 05/17/2021  08:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If bitcoin can survive with a dozen (or more) copycats, why can't credit, cash & digital currency all cohabitate? There really is no good reason to start thinking in terms of dichotomies (that 1 must replace the other) when it comes to currency.
Well, if the horse and buggy can still exist alongside automobiles, then anything is possible.
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2021  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add currencyden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So I finally received the first commercial note using Cinema, the Lebanon 100,000 Livres note nominated for BNOY.
The Cinema feature:
1) Works as well in low or high light
2) The "2020" is give a great illusion of depth! They look an inch or more "behind" the window.
3) When the note is rotated, "2020" images appear to stay in the same place while the rest of the note is moving!
4) Only downside, not very "flashy" like holograms.
I would think this feature will be very hard to simulate.

Here's a close up of the window.



Here's a close up with a back light.

Pillar of the Community
Canada
4732 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2021  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the banknote companies are trying to one over each other with security features, here in Canada we have been using the Aussie Guardian poly with Austria hologram strip for about 20 years with very little fakes or good fakes. Not a hundred percent sure the security strip is from somewhere in that part of the world.
New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 05/18/2021  8:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add currencyden to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I used to be under the false impression that by just using a polymer substrate, the amount of counterfeits would plunge to nil.
Not true.
CCL Secure posted such a case for Mexico. Mexico's first polymer note had no other security features, save the clear window that by default comes with polymer.
The % of counterfeits plunged, BUT after a year or so had climbed back to nearly the same levels as with paper. Now I don't want to disparage Mexico, but it is not the most technologically advanced country, yet here came passable polymer fakes. The story ends well: counterfeit rates again falling rapidly after adding other security features.
I was also worried if enough money users would be "street smart" to follow the security updates. Apparently being duped into losing money is a powerful incentive.
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