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Fake Italian 1876 R 5 Lire?

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Valued Member

United States
442 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2020  11:46 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add johnny676767 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I believe I have a fake coin here. Isn't the edge supposed to be smooth? Weight 24.64; diameter matches with other Lire I have. Doesn't seem magnetic. If it's fake, what should I do with it?




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Sweden
540 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2020  11:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The edge should not be reeded, it should be plain with an inscription (FERT*FERT*FERT*). So this coin is suspicious.
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United States
12 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2020  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add angelo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
definitely a fake the weight is usually how to tell but in this case erafjel is absolutely right the edge is totally wrong

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Canada
174 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2020  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Loruca to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nonono.
This is just a real coin which a bored individual took a file to.
Certainly real, just damaged.
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 Posted 12/04/2020  10:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add machine20 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I tend to agree with Loruca. Any signs of those edge letters in there?
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 Posted 12/25/2020  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very un-uniform reeding on the edge...somebody was bored...damaged coin.

KK
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 Posted 12/25/2020  7:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The edge was reeded by hand (the reeds are variable width) - that seems to be one straight forward fact we have regarding this coin.

Other facts we have are the weight 24.64 grams - the diameter which is apparently about correct and the appearance of the coin.

I would like to add a couple of other facts that stem from my experience as an authenticator.

The 1876 Italian 5 Lira has been targeted by forgers for some years. In my collection of Numismatic Forgeries I have about 5 of them as I recall. Several do have the FERT legend repeated, one is just blank and at least one has a reeded edge. I also own one genuine example of the same date.

The best way to absolutely sure is to check the density. Genuine coins are 900 fine silver and the density must be 10.3 no more no less.

I notice that the thickness is not given by the owner. It is a well known trick of forgers to make their coins thicker than genuine coins to add weight. That could be the case here.

Even though this is the most common date for this particular type, a non-magnetic copy is worth much less than 900 fine silver. I would not accept this coin as an altered genuine coin without scientific proof that it is genuine silver.




My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 12/25/2020  10:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looking at the coin again...I still believe that this is an original coin...with altered reeding. The impressions of the fields and the details in the shield and crown I believe support that this is not a cast copy...just altered...If it is a copy...they ruined it with hand applied reeding. Denticles look good too.

KK
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 Posted 12/26/2020  3:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kopper Ken You may be right - it MAY be a genuine silver coin.

However, I would ask the seller about the SG of the coin and go on record that any purchase was tied to it being 900 fine silver. There is about $17 worth of silver in a genuine cull but a Numismatic forgery is worth less than $1, in my opinion and the gamble is unlikely worth the difference.

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 12/26/2020  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't believe most people are aware of how to set up to do a SG test...though it's not complicated to do. Plenty of you tube videos. Johnny676767 do you have a micrometer or a veneer caliper...we could start off with gauging the thickness of this reeded 5L to others he has. I would tend to believe that if the diameter and thickness are correct and the weight is in line, it would be a mutilated genuine 5L with $17 value in silver.

KK

KK
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 Posted 12/26/2020  6:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Kopper Ken If you average the thickness high to low, or if he compares thickness at the same points the method will work. It may not yield 10.3 however. It is an approximation only.

Every collector should learn how to perform an SG because even using a 1/100 th gram scale it will detect all but a proper ally counterfeit. I learned to do that in High school science class and realized how important it was as a method of detecting counterfeit coins.

As you say it really is a simple test.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 12/26/2020  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The typical fakes of the VEII 5L that you see are pretty poor... along these lines (below).

There is simply NO way that tone (obverse particularly) is fake.
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 Posted 12/26/2020  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I try to never say never until all of the science is in. I am waiting for an estimate of density.

In the pictures that start this post there are two things I noted that at the outset that just looked wrong to me. The first was the thickness of the coin. It looked too thick but in pictures that is impossible to measure. The second issue was the width of the raised rim on the coin. That looks too wide when I compare it to photos of genuine 1876 Five Lira coins from the Heritage archive.

johnny676767 So I am asking the owner check the Specific Gravity. If that is impossible, please check the thickness of this coin against his other original example and send pictures. Also check the width of the raised rim placed next to the original and send pictures.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 12/27/2020  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kopper Ken to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Johnny676767!! Can you perform either of these procedures?

KK
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 Posted 12/27/2020  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Forest through trees... forest through trees.
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 Posted 12/27/2020  3:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
realeswatcher Just trying to be sure. The test would take about 30 seconds to perform and all doubt is erased.

Where is johnny676767 ?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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