Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

1799 8 Reales Coin With Lots Of Counterstamps

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 566Next Topic  
New Member

United States
6 Posts
 Posted 02/25/2021  6:09 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Kimberwynn to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This coin is approximately the same size as a Morgan dollar. I'm trying to find out exactly what it is, maybe some history and possible value? This was my grandpas and I found it when going through his stuff this past weekend.



Valued Member
United States
280 Posts
 Posted 02/25/2021  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrwhatisit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a Mexico 8 reales coin, and NGCCOIN world lists an approximate value of about 60.00 in the condition it is in. There is a bunch of interesting counterstamps all over the obverse. It is almost 90% silver.
Edited by mrwhatisit
02/25/2021 7:16 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
55771 Posts
 Posted 02/25/2021  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The counterstamps are more interesting than the coin!
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 02/25/2021  8:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kimberwynn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey, I am new here so thank you all so much for your input! This gives me great jumping jumping point to do more research. And yes, the counter stamps are rather crazy, I would love to learn more about counter stamp practice and reasonings in general. Again, I really appreciate your time and expertise here.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4063 Posts
 Posted 02/25/2021  8:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those counterstamps are chopmarks. The coins were heavily used in Asia, and merchants would put their mark on the ones they thought were genuine silver. Some coins are full of chopmarks.

And yes, to some degree the worn ones are more interesting with chopmarks.
Valued Member
United States
328 Posts
 Posted 02/25/2021  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PNWType to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To add opinions: Only judging by sight it looks genuine to me, and a cool example too with all those chopmarks

To add info: yes! Counterstamps Chopmarks like the ones on your coin were used by merchants generally to test the coin before they accepted it for trade. This is why there are so many different symbols, every merchant basically had a "calling card" you could say. Also, from the reverse picture, I am pretty sure I see the Mo symbol at 8 o'clock meaning that this is a Mexico mint example

Edit: word choice
Edited by PNWType
02/25/2021 10:19 pm
Forum Dad
Learn More...
United States
21219 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2021  08:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Merged topics.
Moderator
Learn More...
United States
97863 Posts
New Member
United States
6 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2021  2:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Kimberwynn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks again everyone! I am still trying to get a feel for navigating this wonderful site so please bear with me. It is quite a privilege to be able to access so many experts!Is there a better place to ask more questions about the chopmarks and what they could mean? I am most interested in seeing if I can patch together some type of history of this coin's travels.
Valued Member
United States
280 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2021  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrwhatisit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You know, I kinda wonder if this may have been someones 'practice coin' for chopmarks/counterstamps since they are in no particular order.
Pillar of the Community
United States
926 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2021  8:01 pm  Show Profile   Check Collects82's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a few chopped coins 1782 8R, and the scatterdness of the chops like in the original post is the norm that I have seen.
My hoard of '82s is up to 204! 218 BC x 1, 118 BC x 3, 18 BC x 1, 82 x 1, 182 x 1, 282 x 2, 382 x 1, 582 x 2, 682 x 1, 782 x 2, 882 x 1, 982 x 4, 1082 x 1 1182 x 8, 1282 x 2, 1382 x 1, 1482 x 5, 1582 x 13, 1682 x 15, 1782 x 57, 1882 x 49, 1982 x 33
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1709 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  8:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Chop Marked coins are very collectible, there is a sizable contingent of collectors and several great sources of information for these very historical coins. If you want to become more knowledgeable, I suggest reaching out to Colin Gullberg at "chopmarknews@gmail.com" and ask for a sample of the newsletter he puts out. It is a fascinating field of collecting.
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
Pillar of the Community
United States
5096 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2021  12:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the earliest articles on Chop marks appeared in a French Numismatic journal from 1905. The author traced the origin of chopping coins to the appearance of Counterfeit copies of Charles IIII 8Rs in China as a result of a war between Spain and England that commenced in 1796. The manufacture of counterfeits took place in Birmingham, England and several different manufacturing techniques were involved. The best of these counterfeits were made using Sheffield Plate which was a copper core coin with silver layers fused to the outside which could be struck as a unit. The three layers deformed as if they were solid metal and detection was initially achieved by cutting the coin surface deep enough to expose the copper.

When 8 reales were imported to China in the late 1700s and early 1800s a special class of professional authenticators determined their value. These were the Schroffs. Before 1835 they relied on weight, size, color and appearance to judge silver content. But these Sheffield plate copies passed these tests. So because they were aware of the fact that counterfeits were appearing in general circulation when the coins were melted to make Saycee ingots, the Schroffs decided that cutting the surfaces with punches would do the same thing. It worked very well for some of the coins with thin plates and those that were improperly fused but thick plates that were well fused were often missed.

In 1826 a second article this one appearing in the English numismatic press carried the account of an 8R that had been chopped over 100 times without being exposed as the counterfeit it actually was.

As the general business community discovered that copper core coins were still circulating they started to adopt the practice of chopping. Some of the symbol's are interpreted as having individual meanings attributable to specific businessmen. Not all are however.

In about 1835 the Schroff's themselves were introduced to the used of density measurements to detect the thick Sheffield plate coins. The British were responsible for that revelation but it was a self serving deception because the English did it to protect their own monetary supply which was being overcome by Chinese manufactured copies of Spanish 8Rs. They did not mind shipping fraudulent coins to China but they didn't want them returned.

So after that date (1835) the Schroffs stopped chopping coins for initial identification because density worked better but the practice of Chopping continued among private businessmen.

Chopping is also used by forgers to obscure problem areas on their forgeries so NEVER ASSUME that chops prove a coin is genuine.

That said the coin that appears at the start of this thread does look like a genuine coin. I would still suggest the density test just to be sure it is really silver of the correct alloy.

A density test using a 1/100th gram scale will be capable of detecting all Sheffield plate coins. It will however not detect the English counterfeits from the post 1820 period because they were made with 850 fine silver. Density tests will detect coins using 800 fine silver or lower.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
1104 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2021  02:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What do we think of this example? I am suspicious for a number of reasons, including multiple instances of the same chop, porthole/keyhole and bad look to the toning. It's up for auction at Great Collections.


Pillar of the Community
United States
1575 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2021  5:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
jgenn, on that Great Collections piece:

I see what you're thinking with the toning (kind of that "flat" tone overall but with cruddy black color around the devices)... however, particularly on the obverse, it kind of has the look of worn off/smeared-into-the-crevices ink chop. Overall, I'd accept it as Chinese hoard patina WITHOUT the oft-seen dip & strip or polish job. And as for the "actual" chops... sure, certainly similar to what you see on some of the modern Chinese fakes, but remember, those are just copied from what's found on "genuine" pieces (be they original regals or Bob's "Class 2").

Aside from that, also see where the flatness center shield and mushy rim look suspicious like some of the fakes... but there's a fine line in distinguishing that EXACT look from weaknesses/flaws found on "genuine" (regal or Class 2) pieces.

So I see a "genuine" (i.e., not modern fake) piece. Now, is it original regal OR Class 2? As discussed in that other thread, it's plausible that the keyhole window could have been copied over to "Class 2" restrikes - I just see enough evidence that the feature ORIGINALLY appeared on regal pieces.

FWIW... shown below are two examples of purported 1789 "Charles IV" Mexico 8R that were sold several years back by a ring of Chinese sellers (discussed on CoinComm. several times, Bob is familiar - some with silly names like "walmartcoinstore", etc.) that was offering mostly fakes... OR really, often "superfakes"... especially many of the dangerous German thaler types, the Gothic Brit. crown, etc. Some months back, I went crawling through Worthpoint archives to dig up as many of those listings as I could (I had saved some pics, IDs, listing pages back then... Worthpoint doesn't show user IDs (at least in free version), but I could tell those listings by the type of photos used, description language, unique style of the title, etc.

At the time, amongst their high-grade, usual suspect German thaler fakes... they listed a number of portrait 8R which to the naked eye LOOK genuine. A few weren't as good and were either obviously fake and/or matched previously observed modern Chinese fakes... but then there were pieces like this which, gun to my head, I would say are "genuine" (again, whether Regal or Class 2 - but not modern fake).

These are both "Charles IV" legend, keyhole window, each with a variety of chops. Neither obverse nor reverse die appear to match on either piece. Also cropped the GC piece's pics and inserted for comparison:





  Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 566Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.





Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2021 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2021 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.81 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05