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Help Needed - A Mysterious Token (Id: 17th Century Nuremburg Jeton)

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 309Next Topic  
New Member

Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/26/2021  8:23 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi guys,

New here (with plenty of hope...and questions)
"Thanks" to the beer pandemic, I've gotten back into the wonderful world of coins and while fiddling around with my collection I've ran (to be honest, I actually thought my missus threw it away) into my box of "hopeless" coins. I liked them equally as much as the rest, but never had the patience and time to deal with them. Which brings me, a few decades later, to this point in time and place, where I would like to ask for your help in figuring out what exactly these forgotten coins are (more might come, but I am fairly slow) and bring some life into them. One of the things that I've been trying to do while sorting through them was to kind of index them and refer them to some online or offline source, hence some links or books would be appreciated as well.

I am by no means a good photographer so what my camera cannot pick up, I will try to explain with words and add my observations as well. These 3 s have been keeping me busy for too long, so any help would be really appreciated

(really like the tools available so far)

I will start with the Token
not sure how much of it is visible, but from what I can make out it is some sort of rechenpfennig/jeton/counter money/token...which in theory should be enough to actually figure it out...except that I cannot seem to find any that resembles that one

The text is a mess due to its condition, but what I can fairly certain make out is ?AINRICH.FORSTER? on the reverse with the imagery being the traditional trefoil and the imperial orb.

On the obverse the things get a bit trickier when it comes to the imagery but, as a guess from the letters I can distinguish, the text says GOTES SEGEN MACHT REICH

Needless to say, any links or explanations will be greatly appreciated




Then there is this,what I believe to be, ancient Sicilian coin. However, that assumption might be wrong and the reason why I have a hard time finding it anywhere (it doesn't show up in any of the Greek coinage catalogues that I have and the internet sources makes it very confusing)

On obverse seems to be Zeus' head facing right, but on the reverse there seems to be an eagle in a very uncommon position - spread wings, turned neck, facing right - (I have only found one reference for something that looks similar and it is from the roman occupation of Syracuse and I am not convinced that it is right)

Not sure why the pictures turned 90 degrees on this one, but the head is facing down in the first one




As for the last one (kept the messiest for the end), I have no clue.
Had a few ideas, but they all seemed to have been in vain. Went with thinking that it was from Hieron II era and I was almost certain that on the reverse it was some sort of a club or bolt...until I started seeing a horse, so I went and had some tea to clear my mind. That didn't help. Still confused. The one thing that I found peculiar was the way the coin was struck have some really deep engraving.

Again any suggestion or reference would be greatly appreciated






Really looking forward to your answers guys. Thanks in advance
BW101
Bedrock of the Community
United States
38486 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  04:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 5+ Million Cents Since 1971
New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  05:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well...hi there
Pillar of the Community
United States
1042 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  11:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to CCF


I think that getting better pictures of these will be important. diffuse lighting may help with teh dark coins.

It may take some time to identify these coin...

good luck on this.

Collecting since 1972. Learning from then on
"Tell me and I forget. Teach me and I remember. Involve me and I learn." -Benjamin Franklin
My Dansco 7070 type set coin count: 31/76
My Dansco 8176 Eisenhower set coin count: 36/36
New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  11:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll give it another go (I barely got those on my 9th try :) )
New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  11:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
is there a specific detail that I should emphasize on?
I wouldn't want to spam the thread with 50 pictures
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4067 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, the first is easy (sort of). it is not a coin, but a Jeton, likely from Nuremburg, likely 1600s or so. If we can get the inscription we could probably narrow it down further.

In terms of pictures, I have had good success with my cell phone camera. it may be easier to focus them properly if the camera were on a flat surface, and the item is far enough from the cell camera so that it is easier to focus the entire surface uniformly-use the maximum magnification needed to get a full frame and crop the pictures after downloading to your computer, or use the CCF image optimizer which will crop them as well.
New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  12:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yeah, can't do any better
using my HDR mode makes it even worse (might wait until tomorrow for natural light). Bear in mind that the coins are really that messed up
New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Well, the first is easy (sort of). it is not a coin, but a Jeton, likely from Nuremburg, likely 1600s or so. If we can get the inscription we could probably narrow it down further.


yes, that's what I got out of it as well and as I mentioned in the description in the first post, I was expecting it to be an easy guess, but the text on the reverse makes it hard to figure it out

this is as much as I can see on the reverse - AINRICH.FORSTER with a few missing letters in front of AINRICH (tempted to say it is a HAINRICH) and a couple after FORSTER that could be an I and an N


Quote:
In terms of pictures, I have had good success with my cell phone camera. it may be easier to focus them properly if the camera were on a flat surface, and the item is far enough from the cell camera so that it is easier to focus the entire surface uniformly-use the maximum magnification needed to get a full frame and crop the pictures after downloading to your computer, or use the CCF image optimizer which will crop them as well.


I am really bad at taking pictures. Sausage fingers and shaking hands. But I will try that trick of yours. Cheers!
New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/27/2021  4:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
2nd coin

same 2 ways deal







New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 02/28/2021  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
no one? nothing? :(
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4067 Posts
 Posted 02/28/2021  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the Nuremburg token, I believe that the inscription on the other side reads:

GOTES SEGEN MACHET REICH

and Heinrich Forster was one of the Nuremburg engravers, earliest known from 1630-1643, according to Numista. I believe that this side should read "Heinrich Forster in N.."

This is as far as I can get without a Nuremburg jeton catalogue.

Have a bit of patience for the other two. They are in bad shape, but we do have some experts here who might be able to figure something out. But they might be too far gone.
Edited by oriole
02/28/2021 8:09 pm
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United States
18872 Posts
 Posted 02/28/2021  8:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@bw, first welcome to CCF. Second, one of the issues of posting multiple coins to a single thread is that when they come from different eras, it can be hard to get all the right folks to look at them. I think your remaining two coins are from ancient Greece. I'll try to split apart this thread and move those images over to that part of CCF for you.

Added: Anyone wanting to comment on the two ancient coins, please migrate over here: http://goccf.com/t/394141
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2021  09:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@oriole

cheers for the help

I was looking for some engraver named Hainrich Forster like a madman and couldn't find any reference whatsoever, so thanks for putting my mind to rest. Do you happen to have a link to that numista reference (it was a choice between this and numista that I had to make when looking for ways to get help :D - I am not a forum person, if that was not already obvious ). Might give it a go on the other forum as well then

New Member
Denmark
29 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2021  09:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bw1001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@spence

Thank you and Thank you

I am very new to posting things like this on a forum, so I did not know what the correct approach was. Hence the impatience as well (and the fear of the topic being forgotten). I do apologize if I was too much. It was definitely not my intent

Also, it's not like I need to know, but more like it'd be nice to know so people shouldn't waste too much of their time in researching this (even though it would be highly appreciated if they did).

Will give a try to @oriole's mentioned alternative as well

Cheers and thanks again for all your help
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United States
18872 Posts
 Posted 03/01/2021  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No harm no foul @bw. You are all good--glad to have you here.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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