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Thinking Of Slabbing? Make Sure You Understand The Facts.or Lose Money

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 Posted 03/02/2021  2:53 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Thinking of Slabbing? Value your money? Wait until you know the facts before you start.

1. Having coins slabbed is not an easy road to riches - even for experienced dealers/collectors of many years..
Many learn learn a hard lesson quickly.

2. Watch some videos of experienced dealers (I watch Daniel Malone - search for his name on youtube) where they review getting coins back from the grading companies. Note even these people who live, eat, breath and deal coins for a living cannot accurately predict what grade the companies will put onto a slab.

And...the "fault" (but not really a "fault" per se) is in the system - not the people using the grading companies.

3. Coin grading companies are simply businesses wanting to make a profit. And like any other business they will use marketing and any other legitimate means to maximize that profit.

4. The companies use a system where (allegedly) three graders look at each coin and give their opinion of the grade. Some company videos showing the process make you believe the grading process is a relaxed-paced process of studying each coin extensively. In fact one PCGS video shows a number of guys sitting around a table discussing what they think a specific coin should be graded (on youtube somewhere - sorry no link). Uh uh.

5. The reality: If you take a PCGS graded coin slabbed as MS64, break it out, and resubmit it to PCGS, you are never guaranteed the same grade again for that coin. The slabbed coin might come back MS62 (bad day for graders), 63, 64, 65, 66 (great day for you!). This is b/c the process is all subjective: There is no scientific/verifiable standard or method employed. The companies will tell you grading is an "art." You cannot expect consistency reliable enough to bank on from an art.

The graders sit there for 8 hours a day looking at coins and offering their opinions. Personally having talked with former graders (granted - its been awhile), the process is very rushed. Both former graders, not knowing one another and from different locales told me (at different times) that graders are paid by how many coins they can get through in a day. Both graders told me they felt rushed all day long to keep up with the other guys.

So naturally there will be errors. Unfortunately, errors are not as uncommon as thought. Both former graders told me to start looking for myself...which I did and continue to do.

But..this is all hearsay without proof. So...
http://goccf.com/t/346174#2967242

http://goccf.com/t/130186
Also link to and read (download if you want it) the .pdf file in my signature. The verifiable data presented shows trusting people have spent thousands of dollars on many slabbed "No FG" Kennedy halves that are not what the company claimed and slabbed the coins to be. All information in that essay is copy/pasted directly from the PCGS website.

6. You don't have to throw in the towel over these companies...but education about the reality of them will put you on the right pathway to dealing with them in a legitimate way without losing money in the process.

And.if you just like to collect slabbed coins for what they are, which makes losing/making money from slabs irrelevant, then of course enjoy them!
The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Edited by Earle42
03/02/2021 3:30 pm
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 Posted 03/02/2021  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Eventually, a robot/computer system will take over grading.
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 Posted 03/02/2021  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add southsav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Always an important reminder for all collectors.



Good read, thanks Earle!
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 Posted 03/02/2021  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Note even these people who live, eat, breath and deal coins for a living cannot accurately predict what grade the companies will put onto a slab.


They should be able to predict within one grade, for mint state, depending on the coin, maybe two, any more than that is their fault.


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where (allegedly) three graders


It's true..... dunno where you get the impression that it isn't.


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you are never guaranteed the same grade again for that coin


Yeah, what if you ding it while cracking it, not the same grade now.


Quote:
This is b/c the process is all subjective: There is no scientific/verifiable standard or method employed. The companies will tell you grading is an "art." You cannot expect consistency reliable enough to bank on from an art.


Always has and will, I know you're a proponent on computer grading, I'm obviously not. Grading is always based on opinion, however there are standards and graders are objectively reasonable with the grades they give, that's why it's a multi person process. If you ever tried computer grading it'd be set by a person's standards, not collective standards.


Quote:
that graders are paid by how many coins they can get through in a day


Pretty sure it's salary now.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 03/02/2021  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Check chafemasterj's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add chafemasterj to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Eventually, a robot/computer system will take over grading.


For many things yes, I could see that happening. And personally, in most cases, would welcome it.

There is something to be said for human eye appeal. But I'm sure that with a proper algorithm even that could be accounted for someday.
Check out my counterstamped Lincoln Cent collection:
http://goccf.com/t/303507
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 Posted 03/02/2021  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

Quote:
Quote:
Note even these people who live, eat, breath and deal coins for a living cannot accurately predict what grade the companies will put onto a slab.

They should be able to predict within one grade, for mint state, depending on the coin, maybe two, any more than that is their fault.

Then the following slabs shows the same incompetence at PCGS itself:




Also, looking at videos where respected dealers who live, breath, eat, and drink coins for a living will show they often do not find on returned slabs what they thought would be there. Look up Daniel Malone's youtube channel and watch some of his (also a great source of info in all categories of coin).

According to Ron Guth, former president of PCGS, ""What we have learned is that the best graders get it right about 80% of the time"
Source: Youtube video entitled, "CoinWeek: We Take the PCGS Grading Challenge!" August 26, 2016

In the same video, when former PCGS President Guth says he took the grading challenge, he tells where he also did not get the grades correct (and some are off by two points - yes I took copious notes )).

Side note as a former math teacher:
Just how does someone calculate an ability of getting "it right" (wording from the video) 80% of the time when there is actually no ONE right answer? This is a mathematical impossibility. Good PR statement though.


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where (allegedly) three graders


It's true..... dunno where you get the impression that it isn't.


The owner of ACE Coin Shop in Hagerstown, MD told me he once grew suspicious b/c he always got 20% MS 70s back from every ASE Monster box he submitted.

Being a former professional grader, having gone through the training courses and all, he said when looking at the MS70s and finding obvious problems with them (rim dings, marks, etc.), that there was no way these MS70 slabs could have had three trained graders examine each one and end up with so many ridiculous mistakes.

He then suspected PCGS likely doe not actually take the time to grade the entire box, but just scoops 20% (consistent number) off the top and puts them in MS70 slabs. After all, how many people actually take the time to look at them that close?
His suspicions were bolstered when he started to poll fellow large dealers and found that they also got a consistent 20% MS70s.
He also said that the 20% could not be represent the concept that only 20% of ASE's produced are worthy of MS70 grades b/c comparing MS70s from a box to MS69s and MS68s from same box showed the ones labeled as MS70 were not the best of the bunch for that box.
So I took the opinions of a former trained grader who worked grading coins at PCSG who told me HE did not see how the three graders per coin is always true.

Please cite, other than from the wording of the company itself, how you know so assuredly the company DOES what they state, a minimum of the three graders?



Quote:

Quote:

you are never guaranteed the same grade again for that coin


Yeah, what if you ding it while cracking it, not the same grade now.

Ummm...
True, but if I hit it with a hammer it won't get the same grade either.
However, I fail to see logical relevance of these ideas to the context. The verifiable fact being stated is that a coin broken out and resubmitted (OK...in same condition...) is never guaranteed the same grade.

This fact is mostly unknown by the masses. And especially ignorant of this fact are newbies. Many newbies I have shared this info with are surprised to find out that in this day and age that a factual, verifiable scientific process is not a reality with coin grading companies.


Quote:

Quote:
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This is b/c the process is all subjective: There is no scientific/verifiable standard or method employed. The companies will tell you grading is an "art." You cannot expect consistency reliable enough to bank on from an art.

Always has and will, I know you're a proponent on computer grading, I'm obviously not. Grading is always based on opinion, however there are standards and graders are objectively reasonable with the grades they give, that's why it's a multi person process. If you ever tried computer grading it'd be set by a person's standards, not collective standards.

Two points:
1.
Quote:
"it'd be set by a person's standards, not collective standards"

a. There is currently an AI computer program being developed and is somewhat useable at mintstate.com. It was made by developing AI software to "see" tons of what humans have already graded as (let's just use for now the grade) MS64 Morgans. Just like a human mind, but able to compile/sort/average much more data in the blink of an eye, the computer has a better idea of the mean MS64 grade humans have given to slabs already for Morgans. The more it is used, the smarter it will get. A grader having graded 1,000,000 Morgans at MS64 will have a much better idea of MS64 than a human who cannot possibly pool that much data in their mind.
b. A system based on percentage of actual wear and damage per surface area, allowing for high points in each design, would depend on the actual coin. Just like in a QR department of a company, the actual parts produced are checked and a percentage off of perfection can be computed.

2.

Quote:
Always has and will,

Sorry...
Thirty one years ago 1990 PCGS introduced a computer grading system ("Always has" is not applicable. PCGS touted their new computer grading system as being more accurate than human grading. Their wording to promote their new business venture made it pretty clear PCGS knew this to be a more accurate system that was a necessity for the hobby instead of the older inaccurate grading using humans.

By they abandoned the system: The reason being PCGS gave (fact for back then) was people did not trust computers.
However, since nowadays almost everyone carries in their pocket a computer/phone making the antique 1990s computers vey primitive by comparison, PCGS's old argument using their admittedly less accurate system is invalid. So why is the better (according to PCGS) way now not RE-implemented? If PCGS called it necessary back then, then why not today?

In fact while the rest of the world knew computers were coming into society back in 1990, all the coin grading companies each developed their own computerized systems (again, the term "always has" is not applicable). And while every other type of business continued to incorporate and embrace computerization despite public mistrust, the coin companies abandoned their "better" way.

It just makes me wonder if having the more accurate system (again, their own words) meant not as much profit b/c there would be naturally be a lot less breaking out and resubmitting while trying to get a higher/money grade? These are businesses. Businesses seek profits, so what is best is often sacrificed for profit.

So is it profit which keeps PCGS from going back to their more accurate (and now antique) system of 31 years ago? What keep PCGS using their (31 years ago proclaimed) less accurate system?


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Quote:
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that graders are paid by how many coins they can get through in a day

Pretty sure it's salary now

This would be a great improvement. more time could be taken for grading each coin.
The two former graders I talked with said there was always a frantic rush trying to keep up the work pace.
Again, I talked with them around 2011...so time DO change things.

Do you know where I could find that info out for sure? I ask only for education/accuracy sake. As you see, I like to be able to document things (research is part of my DNA!)

The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
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 Posted 03/02/2021  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Quote:
Eventually, a robot/computer system will take over grading.


For many things yes, I could see that happening. And personally, in most cases, would welcome it.

There is something to be said for human eye appeal. But I'm sure that with a proper algorithm even that could be accounted for someday.


I see eye appeal as a moot point in this case. Not b/c eye appeal is not important (obviously).

Since a computer cannot know human eye appeal, so what?

How many high grade coins are already slabbed but have what some people consider to be "hideous toning" and no eye appeal, while other people see the same coin as having "amazing toning" and great eye appeal?

The eye appeal is always determined AFTER the grading by the buyer. This is true today and would be if a computer did the grading.

The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
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 Posted 03/02/2021  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree that computerized grading would be a step forward, and it's likely that we will eventually get there. But I think you are exaggerating the incompetence of professional graders. You often show these examples of inconsistently or poorly graded coins implying that this is the norm, while in fact they appear to be extreme outliers.

Your example above of sending an MS-64 coin back to PCGS for re-grading is also misleading. While it may be true that getting a 62 or 66 back is possible, it would be extremely unlikely. I would guess that 80% of the time it would come back a 64 again, and 18% chance it would come back a 63 or 65, and maybe 2% chance it would come back a 62 or 66.

Human grading is far from perfect, but it's a lot more consistent than you imply.
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 Posted 03/02/2021  8:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am more interested to see how ICG grades coins...
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 Posted 03/02/2021  10:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I agree that computerized grading would be a step forward, and it's likely that we will eventually get there. But I think you are exaggerating the incompetence of professional graders.

I have spent a lot of time researching all of this. Yes, I use those examples simply b/c they are just the ones I used in that post. Examples are not hard to fin. As I was told by the owner of the shop I mentioned, He told me to start checking it out for myself. Which I did and continue to do.


Quote:

You often show these examples of inconsistently or poorly graded coins implying that this is the norm, while in fact they appear to be extreme outliers.


Being a Kennedy specialist, I documented in an essay (using only PCGS material in context) their horrible service that has cost a lot of people thousands of dollar b/c the companies label far too many Kennedy halves as being No FG which sow remnants of the letters in direct contradiction to the definition of "no trace of the letters being found." These mislabeled halves end up being sold for very high prices (thousands have been spent) when its obvious to a rookie remnants of the the FG s there.

Read the essay linked in my signature. There are way too many problems concerning this subject that are listed and show, with pictures from PCGS, in the essay. There also is a major fault pointed out that CGS seems totally unaware of the very obvious OBV die marker on all 1982 No FG Kennedy - a rookie level mistake.

After making a thread concerning the essay, I was informed by people here that PCGS graders do not assign varieties, so all the the mistakes are the work of just one person at the company who assigns the varieties to all the coins.
Well I do know a person wanting a No FG designation can ask for it. But I cannot find anywhere on the PCGS webaite saying there are three graders per coin and one person who does all the variety assigning. The video showing the entire coin grading process shows how they take them in through how they get graded, labels and sealed. There is no one variety man I can find. I would appreciate someone showing me where I missed this employee being mentioned.


What al the above leaves us with is what the PCGS website DOES say. Look in the essay for exact quotation: Each coin has at least three graders assigned to it, and each coin is assigned to graders having a specialty grading those specific coins.
So for all the many mislabeled No FG coins, the above statement means I am left to believe not only three professional (trained) graders did not know "No FG" means no letter remnants visible (various quotes including PCGS say this in the essay), but it was three Kennedy specialist graders who missed this Kennedy half rookie level variety identification?

Again, the defense given was that a variety specialist assigns the variety. Again, I cannot find any verification for this on the website's description of how they handle the coins they get for grading. They only mention the specially assigned three graders for each coin.
Read the essay. The percentages of error in the "professional" slabbing of No FG varieties for the Kennedy halves, especially costing unwarranted thousands (all in the paper - all from the PCGS website) really puts a damper on seeing these services as being all they claim to be as far as professionalism is concerned.

And, BTW, it was former PCGS president Mr. Guth who came up with the 80% also. Not me. I DID point out though that stating a percentage of hitting the target is meaningless when there is no one correct target to hit. That's just math.


Quote:
Your example above of sending an MS-64 coin back to PCGS for re-grading is also misleading. While it may be true that getting a 62 or 66 back is possible, it would be extremely unlikely. I would guess that 80% of the time it would come back a 64 again, and 18% chance it would come back a 63 or 65, and maybe 2% chance it would come back a 62 or 66.

I do not understand how the statement is misleading.
I stated the facts of what CAN happen (which you verified CAN happen). The extremes of what is possible are noted with descriptive parenthetical statements about them indicating this would not be the norm.
As you said, it can happen, but is not likely.

And I appreciate your opinion on percentages, but I ask you to show the hard data behind them b/c I DO want to learn.

I did not/would not try to set percentages in this case b/c b/c I have not personally sent a lot of coins in, cracked them out, and had them re-slabbed. Therefore any percentages I would list are simply unfounded opinion.

You will find by reviewing the No FG essay that, being a researcher and reference book author, I will report what I find/see with verifiable sources available to the reader. I realize listing no reliable sources invalidates what I would write.

Also, something I did not share, the other grader Ray Wasosky from Erie, PA (last I talked with him), was the one who taught me about the crackout and resubmit "game" years ago when I started to research the actual role these companies fill in the hobby.
His personal record was 7 times before the coin finally came back at the uber money level grade (Bust quarter if I recall right). The jump in profits was worth the repeated submissions he said. He, being a former grader, knew if it was sent in enough times, it would hit that grade...and it did.
So what kind of confidence in how excellent the graders consistently are would this inspire?
And one more interesting thing, both he and the other dealer/former grader (independent of each other at different times and being from different locales) both told me they quit grading b/c if people ever really found out how the places did not live up to their claims, both men were afriead it would hurt their own reputations in their own businesses having coin shops.


Quote:

Human grading is far from perfect, but it's a lot more consistent than you imply.

Again, I need to see data and figures.

While I do appreciate people having their own opinions, the position I have come to has been reached without personal preference. At present my desire is to help, especially newbies, to get away from that oh so common mindset that all they have to o is find a shiny coin, send it in, and sell it o eBay for major profits.

ON another forum I am on, every single day there are people with damaged coins saying, "how do I send my error coin into be graded" thinking they have something rare and valuable.
Thc grading companies (businesses) sure don;t mind taking the money, but the wasted money is a great incentive for those same newbies to reject the hobby altogether.

The facts are what I said...if people will not understand what the facts of the companies are, they WILL lose money. And even the experienced cannot get rich using the companies b/c of the subjectivity involved. Otherwise there would be a lot more rich people from using the companies.

I didn't say someone cannot make profits, I said that most people, especially without understanding the facts will more than likely lose money. The tremendous amount of existing face value coins in slabs attest to this as well.

The more and more homework I do on the facts of the products of these companies, the more and more I see people who either have not taken the time to dig this deep do not know the facts, or they simply just enjoy slabs enough (nothing wrong with this at all!) they are willing to overlook the verifiable lack of extant professionalism (at least not worthy of the reputation some people seem to believe these companies have actually earned).

These companies are the best we have for now. I just want to see improvement in accountability and professionalism, as well as people not falling into the system and losing money b/c of an assumed level of professionalism.
The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Edited by Earle42
03/02/2021 10:58 pm
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Quote:
He then suspected PCGS likely doe not actually take the time to grade the entire box, but just scoops 20% (consistent number) off the top and puts them in MS70 slabs. After all, how many people actually take the time to look at them that close?
His suspicions were bolstered when he started to poll fellow large dealers and found that they also got a consistent 20% MS70s.
He also said that the 20% could not be represent the concept that only 20% of ASE's produced are worthy of MS70 grades b/c comparing MS70s from a box to MS69s and MS68s from same box showed the ones labeled as MS70 were not the best of the bunch for that box.
So I took the opinions of a former trained grader who worked grading coins at PCSG who told me HE did not see how the three graders per coin is always true.

Please cite, other than from the wording of the company itself, how you know so assuredly the company DOES what they state, a minimum of the three graders?


There's actually a separate position for grading modern stuff like ASE and modern proofs than the rest of the grading positions. They're more or less instructed to speed through them due to the volume that is submitted. They do actually go to 3 people, but those people are likely spending a second or two at most on each coin.


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verifiable scientific process


Then create one, because there is bias in any system where you try to automate this. What is an AU-53, what's a VF-35? Who decides what the parameters are?


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The reason being PCGS gave (fact for back then) was people did not trust computers.


The problem with the trust component is security, it'd be very easy to, in theory, flip a 1 to a 0.


Quote:
Do you know where I could find that info out for sure?


Granted this is from NGC, but PCGS isn't nearly as "transparent" in this regard,

Quote:
CCG offers the most competitive compensation in the industry along with career advancement opportunities and a full-time benefits package including health, dental and vision insurance; 401(k) with company match; paid time off benefits and more. Salary commensurate with qualifications, experience and ability.
https://recruitingbypaycor.com/care...rce=&lang=en



Quote:
Again, I need to see data and figures.


Show me out of a sample size of a 1000 coins how many are off to a obscene degree. Not talking 1 point, like, a significant amount, like those two you dropped images of.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
My Type Set: https://www.NGCcoin.com/registry/co...sets/236574/
If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 03/02/2021  11:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

There's actually a separate position for grading modern stuff like ASE and modern proofs than the rest of the grading positions. They're more or less instructed to speed through them due to the volume that is submitted. They do actually go to 3 people, but those people are likely spending a second or two at most on each coin.

I am open to any verification of this information.
On one side I had the word of a former trained grader saying there is no way 3 graders could make the mistakes made, was led to researching the idea of the 20% b/c of it, and concluded the "scooping" idea vs. ...........?


Quote:

Then create one, because there is bias in any system where you try to automate this. What is an AU-53, what's a VF-35? Who decides what the parameters are?

please go back and read two posts ago. This was answered as well as pointing to a former human grading based Ai system already somewhat able to be tested online.
The other type of system based upon percentage of "damage" already existed (also in that post) in 1990 at PCGS and the other companies.
All QC departments in factories making small parts use such a system ... and have been since the 90s b/c they unlike grading companies, other businesses rely upon accuracy for profits. Grading companies do better making profits depending on very limited accountability/verifiable fact and using an "art" to make profits. Accuracy and accountability would bring down profits.


Quote:
The problem with the trust component is security, it'd be very easy to, in theory, flip a 1 to a 0.

Not according to the PCGS promotion of the system back then. They claimed at least a 90% accuracy rate was normal. That's 10 points higher than the best human graders (according to PCGS former president Ron Guth - yet as I mentioned, this 80% is mathematically nonsense...as in not definable).


Quote:
Granted this is from NGC, but PCGS isn't nearly as "transparent" in this regard,

Thank you. the NGC video states and shows three graders. PGS claims it on their web page concerning their guarantee.

What brought me to question this was originally, as mentioned the former grader's opinions and research. Then the posts here which can easily be found, the No FG problem, and other things that kept coming up led me to see the claims by the companies as simply claims by the companies.
All companies make claims - Few, in reality, match up to them.
Example - "project farm" channel on youtube. The guy has posted scientific testing methods on tons of products comparing brand to brand (caution - addicting ). Few do what they say (rarely some DO exceed!)
Company marketing claims need be taken with a grain of salt.


Quote:
Quote:
CCG offers the most competitive compensation in the industry along with career advancement opportunities and a full-time benefits package including health, dental and vision insurance; 401(k) with company match; paid time off benefits and more. Salary commensurate with qualifications, experience and ability.
https://recruitingbypaycor.com/care...rce=&lang=en

I don't understand what this has to do with actual product and professionalism. Its a good rating for what they can give their employees.


Quote:
Show me out of a sample size of a 1000 coins how many are off to a obscene degree. Not talking 1 point, like, a significant amount, like those two you dropped images of.

I sort of already fulfilled this concept with the NO FG Kennedy halves. No...not 1000 examples. But without going back and counting, I do not think saying I referenced (links included) in that essay at least 100 slabs to be able to show percentages of rookie level errors made by PCGS are not negligible (especially when it has cost some people who must have a blind faith in the company thousands of dollars for coins not what the label says). And those rookie level errors DO show that (how to say it?) exalting these companies as THE coin professionals for the hobby is not as valid as some people desire (overall human psychological need for "experts" used as a marketing leverage) want to think it is.

The original post is NOT just about PCGS grading...it is people needing to understand HOW the companies grade (no science like thought) and very real the possibilities of how many people can lose money by thinking they can get rich by sending in their shiny coins to be slabbed and then selling those slabs on eBay.

We see this all the time on this forum and another forum I am on. Every day people think they have some amazing error they will send in and make money on it after its slabbed.

Read it again - The entire concept is that that people mistake graded slabs as being a factually based science. When people learn there is no science, many are very surprised (yes, I have talked with many).

The post was about how even experienced dealers who live, eat, sleep, and drink coins for a living, and have the experience needed (in handling slabs/coins enough to make a good guess at what a grading company will assign as a grade) cannot get rich just finding shiny coins, sending them in, and selling the slabs. Its a gamble even to them b/c grading is not a science.

One other point:
For some reason people who dislike finding these companies faults being exposed seem to overlook my plainly stated position concerning these companies.

Point 6 in the original post encourages people none of what is presented in that post means they need to throw in the towel concerning these companies. I admonish them instead that they need to do some homework to understand the reality of what these companies are so wiser decisions can be made before throwing money at the companies.


The slabbed Half dollar No G farce: Download No-FG half vs. Grading Company Claims report here:
https://tinyurl.com/yalrstjz or higher resolution version: https://tinyurl.com/y7rksxu8

- How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Edited by Earle42
03/03/2021 12:00 am
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 Posted 03/03/2021  12:41 am  Show Profile   Check GrapeCollects's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add GrapeCollects to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I am open to any verification of this information.


Not gonna lie, this statement does kinda annoy me. You verify nothing yourself but demand everyone else verify their information, really does kinda press my buttons. You keep saying this could happen or that might happen.


Quote:
Not according to the PCGS promotion of the system back then.


I meant someone hacking their system, not how accurate their AI was.


Quote:
I don't understand what this has to do with actual product and professionalism. Its a good rating for what they can give their employees.


Reread the last sentence.


Quote:
I sort of already fulfilled this concept with the NO FG Kennedy halves.


I don't care about varieties in this case, actual grades. If someone is stupid enough to buy something misattributed then that's on them, if they want a variety they should know what the heck they're looking at.


Quote:
Please cite, other than from the wording of the company itself, how you know so assuredly the company DOES what they state, a minimum of the three graders?


Going back to this, you're the one challenging the statement, why the heck do I have to affirm the position when you're the one challenging it. You prove there isn't 3 or more.


Quote:
I would appreciate someone showing me where I missed this employee being mentioned.


800-447-8848


Quote:
but it was three Kennedy specialist graders who missed this Kennedy half rookie level variety identification?


Modern specialist, not specifically Kennedy specialist, I said this last time as well.


Quote:

Quote:
Human grading is far from perfect, but it's a lot more consistent than you imply.


Again, I need to see data and figures.


You provide the data that it's more inconsistent. Again you're the one challenging so you need to provide the evidence here.


Quote:
an assumed level of professionalism.


These people are likely more educated in authenticating coins than you ever will be, especially the ones who deal with early US. There isn't an assumed level, it is a high level.
My best finds: 1999-WAM:http://goccf.com/t/332161 1988-RDV-6:http://goccf.com/t/335954#2873459 1986-Off-center: http://goccf.com/t/335952
1999 WAM #2:http://goccf.com/t/338710&whichpage=1
1981 Double Struck In Collar: http://goccf.com/t/350199&whichpage=1
ANA id: 3194067
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If you want to buy something or sell something or just talk, shoot me a PM!
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 Posted 03/03/2021  02:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have absolved myself about having to worry about the facts. Have avoided grading and shipping fees as well.

None of my 2,500 or so coins are slabbed.
When it comes to my own coins, I prefer to grade for myself, especially when buying.
If they are slabbed, I ignore either the slab grade or the slab itself.
Or both.

I am happy to join in the on screen grading exercises, (slabbed or not), and will happily read the opinions of others.
And yes, I sometimes (hopefully rarely), get it wrong.
Edited by sel_69l
03/03/2021 07:26 am
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 Posted 03/03/2021  04:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nealeffendi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Sel, your post is confusing, you state that none of your 2500 coins are slabbed, but also state that you ignore the slab grade on coins you are buying. So have you cracked out the coins?
For me my biggest gripe with the TPGs is the dishonest marketing that they do. They make out that their opinions are accurate, professional, carefully scrutinizing each coin etc and able to detect fakes. But their hype doesn't match reality and when so much money is riding on their accurately grading a coin and being consistent then they need to be more open and upfront about their failure rate. Maybe they need to have in big letters on the front of each submission form we get it wrong 20% of the time. That might scare off many customers but it's the honest thing to do.
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 Posted 03/03/2021  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm by no means a pro and will never claim to be...just my 2 cents
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