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For All Of You Saint-Gaudens Folks. A Mystery?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 551Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
375 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  1:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello all

In or just before 1907, St. Gaudens designed what he envisioned what he preferred for the double eagles to come until their end in 1933. It was Lady Liberty with an Indian Headdress on, which some might consider odd, but I think they were beautiful. But apparantly he got over-ruled and had to design the Lady Liberty as we all know and then, again, got over-ruled having no "In God We Trust motto. The president did not want any Godless commie rats to infiltrate our coinage! In 2017, the National Park Service had some commmemoratives minted in Germany with St. Gaudens original "INDIAN" version.

What is a little confusing to me is that, is that I thought they were all struck in high relief, as were their silver sister issues. then, I came across a coin, or more accurately, an NGC label which said that at least this one coin was a UHR, or ultra high relief. The wording on these were about the same, but the words on the label were jumbled around a bit between the HR and UHR labels.

Does anybody have a clue as to why? Same year, same coin, same grading company, same metal, same grading, same weight, same both Mercanti's. I have followed these coins for years and quite frankly I am stumped. If anybody has an informed, knowledgeable opinion as to why, I would appreciate it. Uniformed, ignorant opinions are welcomed as well. Btw, the image that you see of the UHR-labeled medal is the only one I have ever seen. Do you think that it is truly an UHR as some kind of marketing gimmic, a mistake, would it be a true UHR and have more relief than the common HR medals, or ?.

From what I understand, the final grade on any coin submitted to either NGC or PCGS is to be agreed upon by several graders, does the same standard apply as to the relief? Has anyone else seen a UHR example? The NGC numbers verification has apparantly lumped the UHR in with the HR versions.

Any guesses? Again, any opinion is welcome. And if it is a UHR, why is it thrown in with the "regular" HR crowd numbers... no separate catagory. it's like saying the 1907 high reliefs are the same as their later regular relief
brothers minted from 1908 on.


Edited by 4504
03/05/2021 1:44 pm
Valued Member
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United States
171 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Blind Squirrel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a thought. Our handwritten signatures can and do change over time. I have not studied Mercanti signatures, but these two are only vaguely similar. Not saying they are legit, just not the same.
Valued Member
United States
375 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  1:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would and do agree with you Squirrel, but if you were to sign your signature a hundred times, NONE of them would be the EXACTLY the same if they were hand-signed. Remember that these were minted in Germany and each one is individually hand-signed if I am not mistaken. If you look just below the signature, to the right in very small letters, there is written the claim that the signature is "authentic" hand-signed. Easy to overlook. Not sure how it ties into the subject, but it is welcome nevertheless.... thanks.... mike
Edited by 4504
03/05/2021 5:12 pm
Valued Member
United States
375 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had to re-size the images I had, so I could not show the coin itself. here it is. and when I compare the HR version with the UHR verson, they appear the same yet different. But photographing proofs is almost a vodoo mystery and challenging. We have all seen the same effect in other proof coins photographed and they can look almost completely different in one way or two or more... even when it the same coin.

the one you see here is the UHR version and I will later show the HR version, but right now I got to go yell at some kids from my porch playing in the street. Crum, I am still in my pajamas for crying out loud!


Edited by 4504
03/05/2021 5:18 pm
Valued Member
United States
375 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  2:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
and the reverse of the St. Gaudens Indian UHR... notice St. Gaudens stuck to his guns about having no motto on his Indian design as well.


Edited by 4504
03/05/2021 4:40 pm
Valued Member
United States
375 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
sorry, could not show more of the bottom because of the 300kb limit, but believe me the motto is not there. I wish there was a bigger kb limit, but I am not the one running the show here. And I am not the one putting in the ads either. NO OFFENSE TO THE MODERATORS!
Edited by 4504
03/05/2021 5:25 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4074 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  6:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
sorry, could not show more of the bottom because of the 300kb limit


I don't understand why you don't use the image optimizer. it is easy to get complete clear pictures under 300K. I've never had trouble.
Valued Member
United States
375 Posts
 Posted 03/05/2021  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to use the image optimizer every time, almost every picture I have is multi- MG sized. Used it many dozens of times. I do not believe I ever was able to post a single picture in here without using it... ever. btw, here is a link to an UHR that APMEX once had and sold, however I do not know on what date.


https://www.apmex.com/product/19403...ve-pf-70-NGC

thanks for your reply in any case, but it was based upon a reasonable, but incorrect, assumption. I appreciate all replies tho, even assumptions... mike
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 Posted 03/06/2021  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Blind Squirrel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beautiful coins. Absolutely stunning examples.
Valued Member
United States
375 Posts
Pillar of the Community
United States
1677 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2021  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bret to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not trying to be overly technical here, but are these actually considered "coins" or "medals"? I thought they had to be legal tender to be considered coins. Whatever they are, they are beautiful.
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