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1897 Canadian 1 Cent

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Canada
2145 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2021  8:32 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
1897 Canadian Victoria 1 Cent.









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Canada
8469 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2021  9:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DBM to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting!
A worn coin from a worn die found by a metal detector.
Prove me wrong.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
Edited by DBM
03/06/2021 9:34 pm
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Canada
2145 Posts
 Posted 03/06/2021  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i have no idea where the coin comes from. I purchased it from a dealer. I wanted it just for studying DBM you have a great one. okiecoiner so for obverses I use oc4 so I will set this image for the template.
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Canada
936 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2021  01:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rocky, why you do not take OC2 or OC1a for template? Open C, small E. Me I see the lips are more oc1 or oc2 then oc4. I know the Charlton specify 1897 C4 only, but I saw others also.

Ps: I will like know the diagnostic quote: "found by a metal detector" how we can determine this, just for my knowledge and learn.
Edited by silviosi
03/07/2021 01:05 am
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3710 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2021  08:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, it's an Obv 4, no problem. Griffin listed 9 varieties for the '97, but his descriptions for that year are quite vague. The photos are not clear enough for me to see which one, but I do have one exactly like yours, with the I in Gratia nice D/C. The huge magnifications of the photos make it unclear as to where on the Reverse that you took them. The mark at the top-left of the 7 in the date is a PMD ding and not a R/P. I don't know what you mean by "set this image for the template". Where did you get the image of the Obv 4 ... what book/guide?
Edited by okiecoiner
03/07/2021 08:59 am
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Canada
2145 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2021  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner I am sorry but this coin is not and OC4. okiecoiner could there be a OC4A. the differences is quite a lot. ok while my battery is charging. I know how I will do this now. I will set my image to template. I will compare the rest of those obverses I am in an agreement with silviosi. it sure looks like oc1 or oc2. we will know in about an hour. which one it matches. if it down how should we approach this coin okiecoiner I know you will know what to do. thank you all
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 Posted 03/07/2021  12:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is definitely NOT an Obv 1 ... look at how the crown tip impinges on the bead. It can not be an Obv 2 because of the chin/throat roundness. If I remember correctly, the Obv 4 was also known as the "mumps" portrait, because it looks like someone's face who has the mumps. I've never heard of an Obv 4a, so try to prove me wrong. Your coin is definitely NOT a 1, 1a, 2, or 3. You have a heavily corroded Obv 4 coin struck with severe Die Deterioration. Your C in Canada is missing the top, just like mine and Griffin's. In the same place, at the top of the C, it has been repunched. I'd suggest that yyou soak your coin to remove as much of the crud and corrosion as possible, and then try to use it to show any differences from a normal 1897.
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Canada
2145 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2021  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner you are right. it does not match any of these 1to 4 . this is something new. the nose is to flat for any of these. also some of the letters are off one way or the other. okiecoiner what do we do now. can you thing of any other years they may have borrowed and obverse die from. I hope you can help. I wonder if any of the die guys. that pair these Victoria dies might be able to help us.
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Canada
2145 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2021  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner ok I will do that I will give it a bath.
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 Posted 03/07/2021  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am very confident that there is just one Obv design for the 1897's. I think that you are trying to make a damaged coin into something that it isn't. I feel that the naked eye is much more reliable than photography and overlays. Once you get your coin cleaned up so that the design is accurately readable, you may change you mind about the possibility of a new Obv variety.
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Canada
2145 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2021  9:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner I agree I believe you are right. I just pulled another 97. can someone here post a picture of and 0bverse oc4. if you could take it top dead center. that way I wont have to pull it. your help would be greatly appreciated. thank you
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New Zealand
1562 Posts
 Posted 03/07/2021  11:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I be-leave this is the same coin as yours
note die crack on I of GRATIA and under bust

OBV OC4


REV
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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 Posted 03/08/2021  07:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don ... Thanks a lot for the photos of the same 1897 that I have 2 of. I have been trying to tell Rocky that I have the same coin that he says isn't an Obv 4. I'm fairly certain that the severe D/C at the I in Regina couldn't be duplicated from another die, nor could the C in Canada.

Rocky ... I realize that you have been trying to find new varieties using photos and overlays with other coins, but you need to get good, well-struck coins to do any research with. Your coin led a tough life and can't be compared to anything. And, if you are going to try to discern exactly WHICH 19th century Vicky Obverse is, go no further than the end of the neck truncation/bead and the tip of her crown in relation to the bead above it.

And also remember a part of my last post on the 1896 far 6 thread
"You mentioned some different size letters and numbers .... just remember that many of the 19th century dies that were used had handpunched digits because the hubs were used for more than one striking year.
Edited by okiecoiner
03/08/2021 07:39 am
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2145 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2021  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
fourmack thank you so very much. I will use your images as the templates. those are stunning images. you are a very good photographer. your focus is impeccable with these images. all I can say is wow thank you
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 Posted 03/08/2021  7:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rocky ... don't use Don's as templates if you are going to be overlaying or comparing. You do not know the f-stop, the distance, the speed, the lighting, the perpendicular, or a compatible software. As with your other attempts at overlays, you being off just a little on any of them will cause anomalies and at 50-100X, what looks like an error or variety, isn't.
Edited by okiecoiner
03/08/2021 8:38 pm
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Canada
2145 Posts
 Posted 03/08/2021  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
fourmack thank you so very much. I now know with out a doubt. okiecoiner here is what I see in my program. everything except for the word Canada, Regina and just a little part of gratia. these will not match at all. some of her facial design is different. . this would be anew variety. okiecoiner how do we move forward.
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