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1897 Canadian 1 Cent

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 Posted 03/08/2021  8:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
actually I am going to check the reverses as well.
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 Posted 03/08/2021  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
second thoughts I am not going to touch anything. I will wait for okiecoiner to tell me what to do next.
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 Posted 03/08/2021  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Go ahead and do what you want to do. As I said before, Griffin lists 9 varieties for the 1897 and I have found 3-4 additional, mostly R/P'd digits. I don't think that you are going to find any new variety that hasn't been discovered/discussed on other forums. You aren't going to find any variety with the Obv 4 portrait, especially if you are heavily magnified and don't have the correct overlay. I suggest that you get a copy of Jack Griffin's large cent variety book, as I have told you for the last few years. If you post more on your 1897 coin, don't count on an answer from me; I don't do errors.
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 Posted 03/08/2021  8:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quote: "just remember that many of the 19th century dies that were used had hand-punched digits because the hubs were used for more than one striking year."

Manny in collecting community say "hand-punched", this refer to the short cut done in maintenance shop. Instead to put the die on master matrices hub, and not to put the die in the metal soft resistance, they just take the digit punch (which is part of the master hub matrices) and punched trying to align at the best. In majority of cases resulted in dubbing the digit (do not confound with DDO or DDR).

The varieties in those years come more from reengraving the dies before polishing and hardness treatment. This procedure stop somewhere in the begin of 19 hundreds when the mechanical revolution start.

Conclusion for me is: For those periods we will never stop to find new varieties, which is marvelous.

To end: Like Hippocrates sad: " two different argued opinions will have better result then a genius decision" (end of quote).

PS: Probably I will wrote an article to explain how the dies, matrices was produce from hundreds of years before the modern industrial era.
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 Posted 03/08/2021  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner thank you I typed to find that book. there nome for sale. thank you.
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 Posted 03/08/2021  9:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Charlton sale. aprox 45
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 Posted 03/09/2021  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silviosi: If you are going to write a paper on varieties and die striking, be aware that it has already been done nearly 10 years ago. A full, heavily researched discourse is avail from Rob Turner's "Dies and Diadems" that fully covers the evolution of the dies used for the Vicky large cent series. You mentioned the master hub matrices mods. In the 19th century, the hub had (usually) the final digit removed from the hub so that the date on the hub was, say, "188_". Then the final digit was handpunched into each die, sometimes 20-50 dies at a time depending on the date and the striking calendar. Sometimes it was the final TWO digits that were handpunched or cleaned up.

The "handpunch" is NOT part of the master hub matrix; it is separate and is just a letter or digit in the same font or size of the matrix (hub) characters. Before the handpunch can be used to change the die, the die needed to be annealed(softened) and the punch hardened before each whack, sometimes minutes, hours, days or weeks later. It took 2-3 whacks to make the complete impression into the die. That's why you see all the different attempts at die-punching in the 9/8's, the 1888's, the 1893's, and the "N's" on the 1881's and 2's. And all of these handpunches are varieties, by definition, but not necessarily heavily collected. You can pick up a copy of ANY of Rob Turner's books from the author, who is "bosox" on here. If you are going to look into Vicky Large Cent varieties, you need his 4-5 books in your library. They will be a constant reference, with excellent photography and some great die tracking.

If you are looking for Griffin's work, try Abebooks. Griffin's study in also available as "Monograph 1" from Charlton. But BE CAREFUL!!!! The Monograph 1 reprint by Charlton includes photos, as well as more entries that the original Griffin didn't have. However, Charlton really messed up by matching the photos to the wrong descriptions. You can use JUST THE DESCRIPTIONS and you can't use the photos that are shown with the writing or numbering. There were 4 of us who completely corrected the changes needed, and submitted them to Charlton, but they have yet to publish a corrected copy.... they wanted to sell all the bad ones first. We figure that close to 30% of the entries were completely wrong.
Edited by okiecoiner
03/09/2021 08:55 am
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 Posted 03/10/2021  12:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner silviosi thank you both . I have all 4 books coming thank you so much. I appreciate the help you all have a great one.
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 Posted 03/10/2021  12:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rocky ... There is information in "The Provincial Cents series both volumes (1 is the 1858 & readying 59 & the other info is in addition to Vol 1 and has the 1859/8 tracking) that Rob got by going to Britain and getting info from the British Mints (Heaton & the Royal). It's information that you can't get by going to the Mint here or the Museum. His "Dies and Diadems" is an absolute necessity to understand the progression and historical data needed to follow and understand the evolution of Vicky Canadian coinage. Remember that London struck all of the Canadian coinage until the 20th century.
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 Posted 03/10/2021  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner thank you so much. I really mean that. I wish I knew a quarter of what you know about these Vickie's. I dont know why but I am starting to get appreciation for these coins. I would like to know more about them. its like I got bite hehe anyway learning always good. thank you keep up the work okiecoiner.
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 Posted 03/19/2021  9:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
tooling lines around under her nose down to her lip's. across her cheeks.
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 Posted 03/19/2021  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner, sorry to answer late. The business almost in March end of fiscal year keep me busy. I will not wrote papers on. I have only one objection: Who say the master die was not change, maybe on theirs opinion they are wrong. In fact was copy from the pervious without the date and make a new one with normal date. Repairing the dies in that time was hand done. The studies which was done are great. Only one thing: To day we can compute any coins and then compare, the only difference.

In this case, please contact your resources and tell them that something new come out. Just this. I have all those studies and are like a grail, but this do mean are perfect. If you ask the authors if they thing is perfect, they will answer that they studies what subjects they have 'it in theirs hand and this do mean we can not find others.

If I can compute the 58 and 59 is because I have 'it the diagrams, also because I like this series, why? only god can tell. I visit The Royal Mint and also The Royal Mint Scotland. I have 'it super discussions with them about Canadians coins. The mixt of striking was go trough approx. 1920 when Canada say we are able to be independent.

58 and 59 was London. They only copy previous master for the new strikes. Archive of London Royal Mint is clear on. Problem with varieties come from the fact that they use in that time many outsiders of mint for rectifications. That is.

For me this series and the next one are ones of the most fascinating series coins strike in the history of our country.

Anyone please do not hesitate to answer.
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 Posted 03/20/2021  08:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silviosi ... I am not sure that I understand all the verbiage in your post or if you are asking me to do something. Yes, sometimes a new master was made, as well as new matrices, but not very often. However, either job was a very rare, time-consuming and expensive evolution. Something extremely serious had have been going on or some drastic changes were needed. The mint was churning out nearly worthless every-day common products. They were not doing it for a needed profit or displays of workmanship and they were doing it for one of their "Provinces". Things were done that were most cost effective and only repairs or slight modifications were done, rather than remaking any of the die components.
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 Posted 03/26/2021  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i just received this coin today. its the most incredible penny I have ever seen its and 1897 no mint mark. the 897 are all repunched. what weirds is the metal of the second punch. its pure yellow.
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 Posted 03/26/2021  9:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the ON in one is punched doubled. same metals
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