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1897 Canadian 1 Cent

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 Posted 03/27/2021  06:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
WOW, according by the metal use in that time was an alloy of 95 Cu 4 tin (Pb) and 1 Zn.

This kind of melting mixt could happened. Normally we say woody coins, but those show more surface stripes of metal differences.

What you have by the photos is complete different direction, mean the core of the coin is brass and not CU (bronze). could happened for those times of metal metal production. The main is this : till 20% alloy is bronze more that his % is brass which is yellow.

Your coin must be from the middle of melt alloy non mix well, so the % of the Cu, Pb and Zn changed given the brass. The weight of the coin must be little different.

For my own knowledge a photo sided in white and black will prove this theorem.

Edited by silviosi
03/27/2021 06:51 am
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 Posted 03/27/2021  07:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rocky: I do not understand what you are trying to say. The "metal of the second punch" can not be anything different than the rest of the coin. A handpunch does not ADD any new metal to the planchet or strike. Any changes in color are due to some kind of chemical or cleaning compound causing a reaction with the surface. Almost all of my nearly 40 or so 1897's look just like yours, with minor repunching of some, or all, of the digits, but most easily seen on the 7. There is nothing "remarkable" about them. As I said earlier in this thread, Griffin listed 9 1897 varieties involving spacings and repunching and I have found 3-4 more. If you are going to continue to seriously inspect Vicky large cents for varieties, you need to get a good handle on what is "normal" and what is not. I think that the magnification and lighting that you are giving your coins are making you see things that really aren't there. From your photo of the "ON" of "One", I see no punch doubling. I only see a normal tapered letter that is wider on the bottom than it is on the top, so that the struck coin does not stick to the die, but is released. Seeing the coin "in-hand" may show something else, but not your photo.
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 Posted 03/27/2021  07:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silviosi .... All Vicky large cents were struck from a "bronze" alloy of 95 copper (Cu), 4 Tin (Sn), and 1 zinc (Zn) ... you have Pb (lead) instead of tin for the alloy. You also have Cu as "brass". Cu is copper and copper is the main metallic component in both brass and bronze alloys. Both bronze and brass have apprx 90% or more copper in their alloy make-up(brass has upper copper limit at 90). The internal metal of a Vicky large cent IS NOT BRASS!!!! It is NOT COPPER either. The planchet has the same metallic component, regardless if it's in the middle, the surface, the edges or anything else. And there are any number of common household cleaners under the kitchen sink that can/will change the surface color of bronze to yellow, just like brass.

Silviosi, you need to get a good grasp of chemistry, the Universal periodic table and its symbols, and the TRUE definition of an element vs an alloy or mixture. There are many newbies that read these pages. Before you post something like this, make sure that the ground you are standing on doesn't make you sink. I would suggest that you have the moderator remove your last post above about brass, bronze, alloys and elements.
Edited by okiecoiner
03/27/2021 09:33 am
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 Posted 03/27/2021  07:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@OKI, Him refer to the color of the metal and him do not state any DD or anything other. The studies you refer on are there and hard to contradict or relegate. Those are grail for collecting. I know you are a part of those studies and here in Quebec we say "Chapeau" for this. But now we discuss about metal structure. Do not be mad against me I like those topics of the coins metal structure variations and mint production. The rest is your specialty, for this I ask you guys your opinions.

So back to the last topic, METAL COLOUR" , if you have some like this I will buy from you for analysis purpose. thanks.
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 Posted 03/27/2021  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oki than you want to tell me about chemistry?. Well, we can talk about how many hours you want. Ok I recognize I do a error typing Pb instead of Sn stanium and if I remember well is 50 on the table. In metallurgy is no mixture is only alloy which mean a composite of different metallic elements. You talk about bronze and brass. The Copper base alloy has two major employ in commercial, industrial which is bronze and brass. Till 80% Cu (copper) is name bronze and less then 80 % Cu is brass. In function of the alloy components the both bronze and brass can have different colors. If you are interested in this I can send you the % of the alloys elements for different colors.

You are a pillar of this site and probably you can remove my post on the flying independent vision. But do not forgot never that this post was done by a Ph radio-onc Ob- Gyne.

Oki I appreciate what you done for all of us collectors. Your studies, your passion etc. For this nothing to say then "chapeau", but do not come to give me chemistry lessons because you are in a big hole. Coins strike is not only chemistry of the metallic base is also a structural studies and how the metallic base react to the exterior forces (ex milling, redeem machine, strike)

Thank for the attention
Edited by silviosi
03/27/2021 10:28 am
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 Posted 03/27/2021  11:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silviosi ... I am not questioning your personal grasp of chemistry nor your education level. It's just the words that you put down on paper are being incorrectly interpreted by me and probably everyone else. Your verbiage in this most recent post reads differently than those earlier above where you allude to the interior of the coin and it is a different alloy than what's on the surface. The 1897 coin that Rocky started all this is the same alloy all the way from Obv to Reverse.

You stated that: " What you have by the photos is complete different direction, mean the core of the coin is brass and not CU (bronze)".

From the way that I read your statement , you are not only saying that the inside of the coin is a different alloy than the surface, but that Cu is bronze and that the core is brass. You are mixing up the definitions of chemical elements, alloys, and the compositions of brass and bronze. And there are many many alloys of copper that are not either copper or brass.

I stand by with what I've posted to both you and Rocky. His 1897 large cent is bronze and all bronze. The coin has had some repunching done to the working die and is one of the already known varieties of the 1897. Any "yellow" color of his coin is due to some foreign element that has come in contact with it and is NOT an indication that some part of the repunch shows that there is brass underneath. And that copper(Cu), tin(Sn), and zinc are specific chemical elements in the periodic table. Tin (Sn on the table) is also known as stannum, which is the Latin name for tin, and why the symbol for tin is "Sn". There are more than 60 different alloys that have their primary compositions of copper, tin, zinc, and sometimes a little lead (Pb) and iron (Fe) each with a specific purpose, whether coins, bells, ornamental, statues, ammo casings, medals & medallions, gun metal, etc. I'm sorry that you read more into what I wrote than what was intended.
Edited by okiecoiner
03/27/2021 11:27 am
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 Posted 03/27/2021  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Leftcoaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with okiecoiner 100%.
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 Posted 03/27/2021  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok OKI, I am not mad or such, contrary I am very happy that here people look not only for value or such. I am happy you put in question my theorem because like Hypocrites say: "two contrary theorem and opinion will brink a new discovery and invention". Me I start from woody coins, so I day if it is possible to be on lamination, then could be possible to be also just local structural. Just this, which do not eliminate the possibility to be an erroneous theorem. Yes is say stannum or modern stanium same. In fact the name come from "sta staea" = rest in place n for non and num from numericus many years. my ancesters was very funny on composite words. You are indulgent on only 60 different Cu alloy. I thing we can find much more then 60 alloy (the reason I do not sell my stocks in CU)

Me I was surprise by the side color, reason I ask if possible a black and white photo from side to try to analyze with the software of the XRF. Sometimes could be possible to analyze if the strike show the molecular structure. Just this.

Sometimes the science and the technology must stepdown in front of the experience, I recognize.

Thanks for Rob's books recommendation. Cost me 350$ already ordered, so at the first show I see you, you own me a German beer, Rob will reimburse you.
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 Posted 03/27/2021  12:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm glad that you accepted my apology for my misunderstanding that the words/descriptions that you put on paper were different than what you actually meant to say if we were face to face verbally. You allude to "woody" coins and I think that you mean mostly the large cents that were struck during WWl and show uneven coloring on the surface of the coins. It is my understanding, and is also that of most Large Cent collectors, that this was caused by a "wash" of some kind that was used as a rinse. That rinse may have been applied on either the bronze sheets prior to punching out the planchets or after the planchets were struck to remove any shavings or grit. The colored designs are on the surface only and are not all the way through the coin and are seen where the wash was not entirely removed by a final rinse. Also, I agree that there are more than 60 copper alloys. I was only alluding to those heavy in copper, but contained minor amounts of tin, zinc, and/or lead or iron.
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 Posted 03/27/2021  1:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks also for the "woody" coins definition because even on rarity.com they give explanation of not complete mixt of alloy. So this is due to the roll sheet cleaning process. I did 'n know. For me was a structural deformation, information's from others sources. Every day we learn something and then we find out how low level of knowledge we have!! (Hihihi). In this hobby about the Cu alloy I find that; for example and not resumed only of this example is that some 50 cents US they say Si (silver) when is 400 silver and 500 Copper and zinc and tin instead to say Copper alloy. Funny.
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 Posted 03/27/2021  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
silviosi I have to agree with you. I think all this is is some of the metal did not completely bend. okiecoiner that's all that is is. here is another image. this is strange okiecoiner have you ever seen this before.
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 Posted 03/27/2021  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
the coin weight is 5.8 G it measures 25.52 the thickness is 1.67mm . this coin wont be hard to find. it has a closing E DEI. here is the image
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 Posted 03/28/2021  01:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This was probably strike on different plate. 5.8 from 5.67 normal maybe could happened, and even there with the lost by the years manipulations , my opinion was 5.95 original. But diameter? Ouff, hard to believe. No strike will push so far the diameter (25.4mm the original). I will go to see what London and Scotland strike in same year and what alloy. Could take time if they cut me the un-active connection.

Damage I sold my XRF and till mid end of May I will not have another. Maybe SPP could help with .
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 Posted 03/28/2021  07:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If this is the same 1897 coin that started all this off, I don't see anything unusual about it. Your original coin was full of corrosion and dirt/gunk. Are you sure that your calipers and scale are accurately zero'd and working correctly? You look to have enough foreign material stuck to your coin to throw any measurements off, but I think you are within any tolerances allowed. Your coin has some minor Mechanical Doubling and Die Deterioration. Any time you blow up to 40-100X magnification, you are going to see things that aren't exacting but are considered "normal". You have a functioning mechanical manufacturing implement that was striking planchets of unknown quality into everyday household objects. Looking at what was manufactured back then, it is no surprise that no two look exactly alike under heavy magnification.
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 Posted 03/28/2021  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rocky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
silviosi the XRF you are talking about. I contacted that company. I also got a hold of Olympus. they have a desk top as well. where these units have it over the xrf gun. they have a much bigger testing circle. this one you are talking about. its one of the best out there. so I have been told. silviosi I have found a coin. that really needs to be tested its American coin. you have agreat one. silviosi I think I know what this coin is. I am going to contact a person they will know for sure.
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