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Is My Rare 1790 14 Florin "Golden Lion" Real And Should Get It Fixed?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 641Next Topic  
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Belgium
5 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2021  07:00 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Goldenlion to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi everyone! I was wondering is some of you could help figure out if my 14 florin from 1790 is real. And if I should send it to crs stockton in the US to get it fixed since someone made a pendant out of it.
The weight is 8.55 grams and should be about 8.32 without the extra gold and the diameter is 25 mm.
There were only 3805 minted during the one year the united belgian states lasted and of those 1438 were melted immediately so 2367 left!
I know the pictures aren't that great and i'll try to make more when I have the chance. Thanks a lot!



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Australia
18417 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2021  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that it would be better as a coin if the suspension loop was removed,
but even so, there would definitely still be some evidence left of where it had been hard soldered to the coin.

To help prove genuine, accurate weight without the loop would have to be found.

If it is preferred for this coin to remain as a jewelry piece, then the loop should remain. In this case, there would be no way to find accurate weight and less need to prove genuine. Owner's decision.

Interesting piece of Belgian numismatic history.
New Member
Belgium
5 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2021  10:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goldenlion to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the answer sel_69l! If it turns out to be an authentic piece i'll have it repaired for sure! I heard https://crsstockton.com/ does a great job at repairing coins like this (not to sell but to keep in my collection).
I don't see anything wrong with it except for the obverse at the 9 o'clock position where the circle isn't touching. Since I am not the most experienced I hope some of the members of the community could point out if I overlooked anything and give their opinion if they think it is real or fake.
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United States
99030 Posts
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United States
4631 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2021  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You could contact Elsen et Fils in Brussels to see if they would give you an opinion on authenticity.

Very interesting and historic coin!
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18417 Posts
 Posted 04/05/2021  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I checked the
Elsen et Fils Bruxelles website.
They seem to be very professional coins dealers who would very familiar with the 14 Florin 'Golden Lion' that belongs to the OP.
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Belgium
5 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2021  10:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goldenlion to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the replies!

I'll have checked in the near future! I saw they sold at least one of them in the past.

The coin looks right but I'm not sure about the circle that isn't touching on the reverse (I was wrong ;) ) any opinions on that?

In the meantime I could determine the specific gravity of the coin, then I should be able to figure out what it is made of. Since it should be a 0.916 or 0.986 fine gold coin (depends on the source but most say 0.986). It seems pretty hard to fake because gold is really dense metal and the measurements seem to add up.

Edited by Goldenlion
04/06/2021 10:43 am
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18417 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2021  5:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gold and tungsten have almost exactly the same density, in the case of this coin, I think it highly implausible that it is gold plated tungsten, because this kind of fake is much more aimed at bullion coins and bars.
XRF testing of the surface would be OK, but you would need to know the exact purity of genuine coins of this type before you start.

Elsen et Fils would be much more across these types of problems than myself.
New Member
Belgium
5 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2021  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goldenlion to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Sel! I already learned a lot!

Does anyone have an idea how much it would be worth compared to a coin of the same grade but without the damage? Are there 'percentages' for these kinds of coins?
I guess/hope it would be worth more compaired to the melt value because there aren't a lot of them. And would a restored be worth the same as the damaged one? (still not for resell but I think it will look much better this way but don't want it to be money down the drain)

Found this one: https://www.catawiki.com/l/40388767...goud#&gid=1. It looks about the same as mine without the damage and sold for over $7.5k.

Some more pictures if someone wants to guess the 'details' grade ;)

Edited by Goldenlion
04/08/2021 12:14 pm
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United States
4631 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2021  1:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It is impossible to know what a damaged coin will sell for, but you can be sure this one would sell for many times more than melt value because of its rarity.
I tried to find one that had been mounted, but was unsuccesful. Maybe someone else will have more luck.

Here is a recent sale in a grade less than MS that sold for 4600 eu https://www.kuenker.de/en/archiv/stueck/192532

My (wild) guess is that with a good job of mount removal yours could sell for something like 25% of that. There are certain to be type collectors who would accept a flawed example over no example they could afford. I have made that compromise on a rare type in my collection.
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Australia
18417 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2021  8:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with all the tdziemia comments.
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Canada
17170 Posts
 Posted 04/08/2021  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dorado to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To the Forum.
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Belgium
5 Posts
 Posted 04/11/2021  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goldenlion to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Tdziemia and Sel!

How would this coin grade? I know it will never get a real grade but would like to know what the 'details' grade would be.
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United States
5899 Posts
 Posted 04/11/2021  3:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As far as Stockton's repair work goes, he has fixed a few things for me over the years. I was very happy with the results.
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United States
4631 Posts
 Posted 04/11/2021  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll start by saying that there are a lot of others out here with more experience is estimating grades.

For this type, I can find examples online that have been graded between AU58 and MS65. In my opinion, yours has more wear than AU58 examples (right edge of the LIBERTAS shield obverse, and the lower tips of some shields reverse).
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=3578911

This leads me to think yours might get EF Details Mechanical Damage or Mechanical Repairs?
The only other thing I notice is that yours appears quite shiny, and I don;t know if that means it has also been polished at some point?

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