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1922 5 Cent Full Lustre Grade Please

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 Posted 04/17/2021  12:38 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Here's a coin I'm having difficulty capturing the lustre in photos but it does have full cartwheel lustre.
Keeping that in mind do you see wear or a weak strike?
Grade opinions please?

Cheers, Bill


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 Posted 04/17/2021  2:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I really don't see wear, necessarily, but it could be a weak strike, especially on the OBV. Some of the same type "wear" is on the leaf tips. Nice coin and I think that it's UNC.
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 Posted 04/17/2021  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not unc in my opinion - I think there's some wear around the band of the crown - the first pair of pearls to the left of centre are worn pretty much off. I would think this lands at a high EF or low AU.
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 Posted 04/17/2021  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
AGAIN, if luster is not disturbed then it is unc. You can not grade these from average pictures. The band of crown is typical of a weakly struck coin as is the 2 missing pearls.....just my two nickles worth....MS63
Edited by nickelsguy
04/17/2021 6:06 pm
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 Posted 04/17/2021  10:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nickelsguy
if this is an MS coin, how can you explain all these nicks and obvious circulation marks?
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 Posted 04/18/2021  06:32 am  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
bag marks not circulation marks
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 Posted 04/18/2021  07:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it'll grade at ICCS as a high AU.
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 Posted 04/18/2021  07:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it's unlikely that those are all bag marks and there is definitely wear on the band of the crown. It's always tricky to gauge full/partial lustre from a photograph. But, based on these photos, I think this coin is in partial lustre territory - maybe 50%? You can see wear in the open fields - particularly the arc in front of the King's face and, to a lesser extent, behind his head. That sort of wear happens in pockets, not bags. There is definitely some mint lustre in the devices - the's a just barely detectable halo effect for example.

That's what I see anyway - I put this in AU range. I would hesitate to put a Sheldon number on it without a better look....
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 Posted 04/18/2021  11:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There's only one thing harder then trying to grade these from photo's and that's trying to capture the lustre when taking the photo's.
This coin has great cartwheel lustre in hand, I took a couple more pictures this time using a white background.
However I'm not sure if they're any better at showing the lustre, the camera automatically compensates for any glare.

Cheers, Bill


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 Posted 04/18/2021  1:25 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Other than nickelsguy, has anyone else here ever open a mint sealed mint bag of 5c? I have opened bags from the late 1950s through to the late 1970s. This is a mint state coin. The marks you see on the rim and fields are typical bag marks. There is zero wear on the crown and full lustre. This is a weak strike, normal for the series, and the arc you speak of is from Die Deterioration. You can also see this is a later die state where the fields meet the rim.

Bill, your photos are superb, as usual. I am at MS-63 with this coin.
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 Posted 04/18/2021  2:04 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
At a coin show 10 years or so ago I bought 3 au55 ICCS 1925's. I cut them all out. Resubmitted got two 64's and an au55. Talked to BC about the au55 and the luster.....he apologized and put it in a 63 holder. He was very good at Geo 5th nickle coins but hurried sometimes. ICCS right now does not have a clue. Neither does PCGS. This series should not be purchased by pics alone.......LUSTER IS EVERYTHING.
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 Posted 04/18/2021  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting - I was not aware of Die Deterioration, at least not as described here. I don't understand why those two pearls would disappear though.... wouldn't you expect to see a sort of even deterioration of the entire die?
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 Posted 04/18/2021  4:40 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The two pearls missing are a result of the weak strike of a very hard material. Look at the kings shoulder and mustache and gown jewels.....same thing
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 Posted 04/18/2021  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a weak strike, with strong Die Deterioration...

https://www.PCGS.com/cert/84151114

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Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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 Posted 04/20/2021  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hounddog Bill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm going to try and explain what I look for in determining a weak strike.
This is generally speaking as there's other factors in play such as Die Deterioration, die alignment, clogging among a few.
As been mentioned many time I first look for lustre if lustre is present I look to the band and jewels in the crown.
This is a common and suspected area of both a weak strike and die clogging being the lower recesses of the die.
I would then look to the lower portion of the portrait and see if the jewels and ribbons running down from the kings shoulder are fully developed.
If they are not fully developed then I look to see if the engravers initials (BM) are present at the base of the portrait.
When I see fully developed initials and the jewels and ribbons are not developed then I suspect wear.
I believe the strength of the initials are a good indicator of weak or strong strike.
There are other indicators of a weak strike also, look at the legend and the tops of the letters on a weak strike they may have what looks like bag marks but are actually burnishing marks that were not removed during the minting process.
A lot ( not all ) of the marks referred to as bag marks on the 1922 in the original post are actually burnishing marks that were on the planchet before striking.
A very good example of burnishing marks not removed from the striking of the coin can be seen on the reverse most prominently in the large "5" in the centre of the coin. (Example below)
The chatter you see on the rims will be found on near all coins from this series even the highest graded example have some burnishing marks on the rims
I've included pictures of a coin that has an above average strike for this series to compare with the weakly struck 1922 above.
On the 1922 example shown above the initials are barely seen but this is a area that is somewhat protected from wear indicating they were never there.
If I were to see well developed initials but it had weakness in the the jewels and ribbons then it can most likely be attributed to wear.
Hope this all makes sense and is useful to someone I'm not all that great at putting my thoughts into word.

Cheers, Bill





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 Posted 04/27/2021  4:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 829729742 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i see a lot of scratches, maybe vf
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