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Help Authenticating 1610 City Of Jülich Siege Money (8 Thaler)

 
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 Posted 04/18/2021  7:12 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bd251 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message




I recently acquired this coin. It had been misidentified and described as being "struck on lead." I've identified it as an 8 Thaler seige coin from the City of Jülich, KM# 22. I would like some opinions on authenticity.

-Non-magnetic
-Weight: 21.62g
-Size: 32mm x 36mm (long side)
-Density (Archimedes test): 10.76 g/cm3

It should be silver and 24.64g. I'm not sure what kind of weight range to expect for a coin like this so my though was that I could use the density to determine if it was likely lead or not. For reference silver is 10.5 and lead is 11.3 g/cm3. Copper is 8.9. I'm not very confident in the density measurement. I attempted the test several times but I was only able to get the scale to stabilize once for the submerged weight (2.01g). It was mostly fluctuating between 1.9 and 2.1g which puts it in the silver range and the lead range (10.30-11.38g/cm3).

Compare to the picture on Numista
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces146872.html

What do you think about this coin?
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 Posted 04/18/2021  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not an expert in this area, but do you have access to XRF or some other non-destructive method for determining the metal alloy?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz

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 Posted 04/18/2021  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bd251 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can ask my LCS.
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 Posted 04/19/2021  07:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It appears that this item exists in both lead (2 thaler) and silver (8 thaler).
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=2125248
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=5447761

Unfortunately neither of these listed a size.
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 Posted 04/19/2021  12:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bd251 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you! Finally a new lead. It seems that both of those links show a lead 8 thaler, no? Its also interesting that the picture in the first link is the same one used on Numista.
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 Posted 04/19/2021  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can find 3 sales of this type on acsearch.

Two of them say it is made of lead (I doubt an auction house would get this wrong, as they must have resources to determine composition). Here is the one that calls it a lead 2 thaler: https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=738296

So, I don't know what to make of it.
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 Posted 04/23/2021  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bd251 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That looks like the same coin that sold in 2014.

Now it would seem that I need to find out if there are any known silver versions.

The Standard Catalog of Word Coins list all the City of Jülich 1610 siege coins as silver, siting Hartwig Neumann, Die Jülicher Notklippen von 1543, 1610,
1721/22, Jülich, 1974.
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 Posted 04/23/2021  10:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From a standpoint of silver ores from Europe many of the mines were actually lead mines where silver was a byproduct. So an alloy of silver and lead is very likely.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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