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Your Thoughts On A Letter To NGC Questioning Their Information On A Coin

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 5 / Views: 327Next Topic  
Valued Member
United States
379 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2021  12:33 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 4504 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello all

This is a rather limited-scope inquiry to NGC questioning their information about a specific coin series, the 2016-2018 St. Gaudens gold 1 oz double eagle INDIAN coin. The other coin represented in this series is the WINGED version.

The letter is rather long and involved, so if you do not wish yourself to be subjected to this form of torture, please skip it without comment. However, if you are interested enough to read and comprehend its content, then I invite your comments before I send it to NGC.

I would appreciate your most harshest critiques, any fault you may find with the letter in any regard. I wish to clear up any defects in either my reasoning or facts before I send it on and I know the harshest of critics, correct or otherwise, exist on this board, so have at it! Please do not sugar-coat your opinion, especially if you determine that I am factually wrong on any area in the letter.

Basically, in my opinion, which is borne out of facts and images I intend to send to NGC, is that they made substantial and obvious errors on both their verification page descriptions and graded numbers. Altho I have many images which confirm my allegations, for brevity's sake I am including in this post only one of the more obvious images.

p.s. I have written that a copy of the letter be sent to A.N.A. This is a sort of bluff, for now, in an attempt to get NGC to move on this issue, which spreads like a cancer thruout the entire series. Sorta like when I was building a motorcycle once... one change in the finished product often affected other issues on the bike down the line.

I have asked NGC on both their website blog page and directly to their website contact pages regarding this issue and have not received so much as an acknowledgement of my contact with them regarding the issue, nevermind any corrections. I thought that implying to NGC that the letter was also going to the A.N.A. might spur them to action, as opposed to just blowing it off as it appears they may have done.

If this is the case, it is my opinion that the issue is being ignored because once it is addressed and confirmed, the work involved to correct NGC's information, especially considering the down-the-road possible corrections, would take a large part of NGC's time and research/resources and would be viewed as a huge headache to correct. If they took it on, NGC will be having bi-carb sent to their offices by the truckload.

enclosed within this comment box is the actual letter I will be sending to NGC. Again, feel free to whale away at it in any perceived errors in my judgement. I wish only to set the matter straight. I prefer NGC over any of the other TPG's, so there is no "axe to grind" here.

5.6.2021

Dear NGC

I am a long time coin collector. I have discovered in a particular series at least one error and maybe more in NGC records, too
numerous and important to overlook in the following series, however, I am addressing the main one and leaving it to your descretion as what to to with the others. I have contacted NGC previously in the "ask NGC" in the NGC website blog, and directly thru email thru the NGC website. I have not received any indication that NGC has either received my questions or would look into it altho weeks have passed, so I am writing about it to your company.

The coin in question are the 2016-2018 1 oz. GOLD National Park Foundation INDIAN Saint-Gaudens commerative with the John Mercanti label with a total mintage of 750. I will refer to several 2017-only Indian versions for the purposes of this letter.

The Gold medal came in two catagories (as does the Silver issues)... An "INDIAN" and a "WINGED" versions in the St. Gaudens designs / commemorative coins. The Indian and Winged issues were available in two reliefs... a High Relief (HR) and an Ultra High Relief (UHR).

The labels appear to be in error with the NGC verification page. And possibly with the coin's NGC census and coin explorer pages. The issue(s) involved seem to have just carried over from one of the following 2 types of reliefs, and possibly the numbers graded, to the
others.

IMPORTANT: Please note that ONLY the 2017 1 oz. St. Gaudens, commerative medal, GOLD, both INDIAN and WINGED versions are
addressed here. Your verification and explorer pages indicate the following numbers in both HR and UHR reliefs for the year 2017 only INDIAN gold 1 oz coins

1. Indian HR (389) or (413) (Please note that your
verification
page indicates 389 while your explorer page
indicates 413)

2. Indian UHR (642)

3. Winged HR
4. Winged UHR

Please take a look at this example, a 2017 "INDIAN", UHR, certification number 4600319-066. The NGC'S verification page describes that this is a "WINGED" UHR, which is obviously not the case. And 642 Indian UHR's in NGC out of a total of 750 Indian coins struck, regardless of they may end up? This seems very unlikely. I have no problem with coin dumps to TPG's by those involved before they
are available to the public, however, the numbers given seem questionable in my opinion.

I can find no ogp (original government packaging) examples that alludes to UHR reliefs for the Indian coins, only for the HR reliefs.

Therefore, I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that the UHR designation was assigned or determined on NGC labels only by NGC and not based on the minter's information or OGP describing a UHR series.

Coincidently, the numbers given for the UHR "Winged" coins are 642 according to the NGC CENSUS DETAIL page, and in the verification
page for the "Indian" coin under 4600319-066, which is incorrectly described as a "Winged" coin, the total graded is also 642.

I also wonder how over 1,000 of the Indian coins (referring to both the verification page or explorer pages) can end up in NGC alone when supposedly only 750 gold 1 oz Indians were struck in 2017, regardless of reliefs. I realize that mintage figures, especially when
given by the minter, can be slightly to wildly "off" on their stated total of coins struck, but several hundred coins struck over the stated amount appears to be somewhat of a stretch. In many cases, at least in the past, the total struck as advertised by the minters
were often below the coins actually struck.

I have been unable to locate no more than several graded Indian UHR examples online for sale since the series was introduced. However, the HR grades are somewhat commonplace when one does come up for sale or auction. This adds to my sense that something may be off.

In the NGC explorer page, in the NGC Census Detail box, there is no UHR Indian reference. However, I realize that not all coins are represented or updated.

Under the NGC census page, there is also no UHR Indian reference, but again, I realize that not all coins are represented or updated.

However, please consider that the NGC census page seems to have near-duplicate descriptions for the same coin. They are exactly the same except that one has " John Mercanti" in it, and the other omits it. To my knowledge, they are all John Percanti labels as he was
the designer of these coins. I have yet to see any of these coins without the John Mercanti likeness on the label. Also note that that, as spelled on the page, that the "UNITED STATE - 2017 1OZ National Park Foundation Saint-Gaudens, Indian, HR GOLD PF Ultra Cameo" that no UHR coins are represented on this page. However, I realize that not all coins are on the census pages.

I have enclosed all relevant pages of these points for possible assistance in order to quickly understand and help give this matter the attention it deserves. Sometimes it's only a little matter with no real consequences, yet then again an enormous amount of money or value or business can depend on correct information given by third party graders. Please excuse my handwritten notes on them.

As you already know, having the right information on the NGC website on their various pages is an important issue, especially on the verification page. There is at least one verifiable and obvious error (describing the "Indian" coin as a "Winged" coin on the verification page). Any other possible issues are up to you to handle as you see fit. I am not looking for fault, merely a correction(s), which would uphold NGC's reputation, so I know you would prefer to clear it up yourselves as a matter of good business practices.

Either I or NGC has made a substantial goof. There is no other conclusions that can be made. If it is me, please accept my apologies.

If it is NGC, please correct your records. On a personal note, I prefer NGC over the others and believe that this is a very isolated error, and again, I am addressing ONLY the St. Gaudens 2017 Gold 1 oz. gold INDIAN double eagle coin for the purposes of this letter.

However, I have a feeling that futures headaches regarding this entire series with similar issues may be encountered as I have found. I do not address them here and is not the intent of this letter.

Sincerely

Mike Thor


CC: A.N.A.

note: I intend to send a copy to A.N.A. of this letter several weeks after NGC receives it, as several of my more informal inquiries on both the "ask NGC" blog page and in the contact section on the NGC website have been met with silence, intended or otherwise. I would at least appreciate an acknowledgement that you have received my correspondence.

note: if you will look at the top of the picture and see where NGC describes this "Indian" coin as a "Winged" verson. Obviously, this is not the case. The Winged version has Lady Liberty with wings instead of an Indian with a headress. Pictures of both the Indian and Winged versions are all over ebay and elsewhere if you want to compare the two.





Edited by 4504
05/09/2021 1:02 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
616 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2021  12:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add T1Steel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hope you get the answers you are looking for.
Pillar of the Community
United States
7245 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2021  3:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hope they care, but admittedly I will be surprised. These companies exist to make money in assigning grades as their priority. There is no accountability in their grading and grades assigned (they do not have to describe why they grade a coin with the grade they give to it), so mistakes like you point out, and also your already contacting them numerous times before with no acknowledgement, seems a precursor to what will happen.
As to sending this to A.N.A., again...not sure they will care. I hope I am wrong.
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1736 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2021  4:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add southsav to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Agree with Earle. Good luck . letter makes sense to me as long as your quoted data is correct
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 Posted 05/10/2021  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bump111 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would think that every time one of the TPGs can add a new attribution / correct errant info they will welcome that opportunity - provided there is money to be made in the effort.
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3951 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2021  6:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I hope they care, but admittedly I will be surprised. These companies exist to make money in assigning grades as their priority. There is no accountability in their grading and grades assigned (they do not have to describe why they grade a coin with the grade they give to it), so mistakes like you point out, and also your already contacting them numerous times before with no acknowledgement, seems a precursor to what will happen.


Agree with the part that they will probably not respond. Likely they just don't care. Especially if you have written them before without reply, I wouldn't be surprised if they just toss your letter out without even opening it.
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