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1978 P 10c Improperly Annealed Planchet

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Pillar of the Community
United States
801 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  11:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Here's another rim photo



Here's an example of a PCGS graded coin. Does no one see similarities here?


Best Find - 1976 D WQ DDO-001 http://goccf.com/t/382777
Interesting find - 1947 S over inverted S http://goccf.com/t/368005
Pillar of the Community
United States
2032 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  5:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SamCoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's definitely possible, CoinHI. Sadly, it's far above my pay grade to say with certainty. These annealing errors really separate the true experts like Mike Diamond from the serious enthusiasts like ourselves. Perhaps you can message him and ask him to weigh in?
My best finds:
1996 DDO-001/FS-101: http://goccf.com/t/372066
1995 DDO-001/FS-101: http://goccf.com/t/376071#3225244
2000-D Maryland Quarter Rotated Die http://goccf.com/t/394553
1988-P "Reverse of '89": http://goccf.com/t/399390
Massive strike through error on 1957-P Jefferson nickel http://goccf.com/t/402781
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
18704 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have my doubts about off color copper nickel coins.
Too easily produced by a range of artificial or accidental means.

It is possible to produce a nice even brown or even a nice golden tone on a copper nickel coin, by direct contact soil burial. There have been quite a few pictures of metal detector finds posted here with the CCF, that show quite a range of colors found on coins recovered from burial.

I imagine that such toning could be produced far more evenly by dipping in the right sort of chemical solution.
I won't indicate the chemistry of the types of solutions, because too many may get some wrong ideas on how to do this.
Can be done with mint fresh uncirculated coins or with circulated coins.

Heating copper nickel coins to red heat turns them black. Copper nickel coins recovered from the ashes of fires also exhibit dark colors.
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 Posted 06/02/2021  7:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mikediamond to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was asked to pipe in. I lean toward an improper annealing error due to the presence of sharply demarcated islands of exposed cladding amidst a sea of copper-colored metal. It's difficult to get this effect with environmental exposure. However, since the coin doesn't retain much mint luster, I cannot be certain of my diagnosis.
Error coin writer and researcher.
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United States
2032 Posts
 Posted 06/02/2021  7:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SamCoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@mikediamond thanks for chiming in! This is great info to have about the islands of exposed cladding.
My best finds:
1996 DDO-001/FS-101: http://goccf.com/t/372066
1995 DDO-001/FS-101: http://goccf.com/t/376071#3225244
2000-D Maryland Quarter Rotated Die http://goccf.com/t/394553
1988-P "Reverse of '89": http://goccf.com/t/399390
Massive strike through error on 1957-P Jefferson nickel http://goccf.com/t/402781
Edited by SamCoin
06/02/2021 7:17 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
801 Posts
 Posted 06/03/2021  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for taking a look Mike. Thanks also for the eloquent expansion on the clad island analogy.

Would be interesting to see a time lapse video of this (possible) error happening.



Best Find - 1976 D WQ DDO-001 http://goccf.com/t/382777
Interesting find - 1947 S over inverted S http://goccf.com/t/368005
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Canada
933 Posts
 Posted 06/03/2021  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the Nickel it is this:


Quote:
Stress relieving is used to remove or reduce stresses in work hardened alloys. The stresses are relieved without causing recrystallization in the grains by heating to 800-1600F.
Annealing is when an alloy is heated (usually to 1300-2200F), the temperature is maintained for a while, then cooled. This treatment recrystallizes the grain structure. Annealing totally eliminates any stresses in the material, causes reduced tensile strength and improves ductility.
Solution annealing is a high temperature anneal (2100-2400F based on composition) specific to certain alloys. It puts any carbides that have formed completely back into the solution and creates coarse grain size to enhance stress rupture properties.
Age hardening uses heat (800-1600F) to change the solubility of an alloy that contains elements that promote this. Aging causes certain phases to precipitate at certain temperatures to increase strength. For this precipitation to happen, alloys must be kept at these high temperatures for extended amounts of time. This extended time is what is referred to as "age".


The collors for different temperatures for Nickel it is this:
(A) Without heat treatment;
(B) 450C;
(C) 500C;
(D) 550C;
(E) 650C;
(F) 750C.



So an annealing start with 800 degrees. Can some one say PCGS is wright?
Edited by silviosi
06/03/2021 10:31 pm
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United States
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 Posted 06/04/2021  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure I understand the question Silviosi but the 5c color looks like choice "F"?

Best Find - 1976 D WQ DDO-001 http://goccf.com/t/382777
Interesting find - 1947 S over inverted S http://goccf.com/t/368005
Pillar of the Community
Canada
933 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2021  10:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add silviosi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
F is very black. Was not a question, just show the color change of the Nickel at different temperatures. then other thing, after plating or cladding no coin will be anneal, conclusion: I see it is impossible to have this color if no exterior agent will contact with.
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1501 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2021  09:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Big-Kingdom to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Environmental damage in my opinion and not a well cared for coin to begin with. The edge is the same color as the rest of the coin. So either we have a well circulated annealing error with no luster and environmental toning to boot, or we have a well circulated environmentally damaged coin.

In the end only the determination on the slab if it was sent for grading would clarify this. But what I know is real annealing errors have clean edges, and they still have mint luster although it's cloudy, it's still there.
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 Posted 06/29/2021  09:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I finally found this thread. I save the information and wanted to put it all on one image to include in my files and time got a away from me.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
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United States
277 Posts
 Posted 06/29/2021  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Check VestigeWolf's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add VestigeWolf to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are going to have to send it in. After all this, I say ED.
Discovering the truth does not have all the answers.
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