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Canadian Coin News - Gord Nichols Counterfeit Column

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 Posted 08/04/2021  5:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner When you support Mike Marshall you are supporting what he says. Marshall is the one that said

Quote:
It's black and white: a counterfeit is a counterfeit - no more, no less - ....

Therefore, by supporting his position you are also supporting this view which is simply incorrect.

You said in this very post
Quote:
I said that the law makes ANY counterfeit illegal to possess.


That is in point of fact COMPLETELY WRONG. Not all counterfeit coins are illegal to possess or own or sell. All counterfeit coins is the implication that I as a collector of CCC Mexican 8 Reales resent and find objectionable. Do you understand?

I think you need to get off your high horse.

My frustration all along with, the Article, Marshall and the majority of the members of this forum, has been that you never address what is viewed by the law enforcement agencies in Canada, based on actual case law and convictions, what constitutes a prosecutable case under the counterfeiting statutes.

Mike Marshall can have his opinion as can I as can anyone. The only thing that counts is who will the authorities actually charge under this law. To tell anyone that his actions are illegal - prosecutable under the law and could result in up to 15 years prison confinement is where Mr. Marshall overstepped his ability and understanding of reality.

His approach is that of a vigilante a bully. He is judge, jury and executioner in his own mind and make threats that Gordon accepted at face value. That is the act of a bully. Nothing more nothing less.

A reasonable person addresses the issue from a different perspective - listening to the other side and judging the evidence on the merits of the evidence.

The real enemy we need to stand united against is the manufacturers, importers and distributors of numismatic forgeries that are intended to defraud collectors. I can agree to that, but to badger a person like Gordon so much that he leaves the hobby completely.

I can not ever agree that was right. Gordon is still due an apology.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 08/04/2021  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This entire thread has been the discussion of counterfeit Canadian coinage. We are not talking about Spanish or Dutch or Roman or anything else. This thread pertains to CANADIAN coinage and fakes that have been made. We all, Mike M included, have just stated THE LAW which says it is illegal to possess any counterfeit Canadian monies. You can insert whatever other countries in your equation, but it doesn't change the fact that your friend was doing something ILLEGAL. Until the law is changed Mike M and I or anyone else can say that, for Canadian coinage, a counterfeit is a counterfeit.. End of story. Early in this thread , there was a reference to Gord's 1858 20 cent piece. He could buy a recent copy of that coin for $5 or 100 of them for $500. He could then turn around and sell them on Ebay or an auction for, say, $150 each or $15,000 for his $500 investment. Now do you consider that fair? How do you think that a collector feels when he's been weaseled out of huge bucks.

You have some kind of crazy picture or story in your mind that this discussion has been about world-wide counterfeit coins, contemporary or hot off the press. This whole thread pertains to Canadian law and what is legal or illegal. How CCN got involved, I have no idea, but you are not going to find a single person on these coin sites that Mike Marshal is anything but honest and protecting our hobby. Think what you wish, but a crime is a crime no matter how good of a friend that you have/had that got burned by what is written down by Canadian Law. I will discuss this no more with someone who can't get it through his head that we are talking about Canadian coinage and the legality of holding fakes.
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 Posted 08/04/2021  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My opinion on the subject is fairly straight forward. I understand that some types of counterfeits have historical backgrounds that can be interesting and worth studying, however in our country counterfeits are not allowed to be collected, sold, or traded.

With that being said, I personally think that they belong in museums and in the proper hands to study for educational purposes in the proper setting where the general public can enjoy the historical side.

Regardless of if its a coin or a painting for example, counterfeits are fakes that were created with the intentions of being used to create monetarie gains, period.

Not only by fooling the government but the public aswell, allowing something of the sort to be sold, traded or kept regardless of how old it is, keeping them in collections is not an ideal situation for anyone, a collector very well may know exactly what he/she has and will never sell it, but if that collection gets passed onto an unkowing relative or sold in an estate sale and that relative decided to sell or cash in, or the estate curator did not know and were to get caught and ended up in trouble, whos at fault?

Long story short, that scenario could easily have been avoided had it not existed in the first place.

If we cant legally have fake artifacts, paintings or memorabilia that was created by non government entities, what would make collectors think that the government would really let fake money fly?

Just my opinion on the subject.
Searching Canadian Small Cents daily since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 Georgivs VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1951 Georgivs VI 1 Cent DDO Type 2 http://goccf.com/t/363635
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO Type 1 http://goccf.com/t/373627
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO Type 2 http://goccf.com/t/408163
1989 Belize 25 Cent's DDR http://goccf.com/t/362747
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 Posted 08/04/2021  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
okiecoiner I was the third person to chime in on this thread. The second did not read the article.

In my reply, I raised a simple issue - a valid one - regarding the existence of two basic classes of counterfeits, CCC and NF. I wanted to make sure the CCN record was corrected.

What followed should have at least recognized and responded to that issue. That is how the Forum works.

But no one did initially. Everyone presumed Mike Marshall was 100% correct. Not one person spoke to say - hold on his comment only applies to counterfeit Canadian coins made after 1858, there are a lot of others that are legal.

Instead, all replies supported Mike Marshall totally but NEVER ONCE did anyone else indicate that his comment ONLY pertained to Canadian coins that remain monetized. There was nothing at all that indicated that any legal to own collectable counterfeits actually exist. PERIOD.

That you can not deny. That is what happened. Those are the facts. Now you say it was always about Canadian law in relation ONLY to counterfeit Canadian coins made after 1858. Where exactly was that said?

Nowhere!

From the outset, I have challenged Mike Marshall's catch-all contention that all counterfeits are the same and that they are all illegal to own and that they all should be destroyed as worthless. I have heard that same comment time and time again until I am sick of hearing the lies. It is simply wrong. There is no law on the books of any country in the world that makes him right. If you disagree - please produce the law.

Just as Marshall never said he was referring only to Canadian coinage made after 1858 when he said all counterfeits are the same. Neither did you okiecoiner. Instead you along with others chastised me and my positions without an iota of fact to support you.

Marshall never said in the CCN Article that there is an entire class of counterfeit coins that are legal. He never corrected the commonly held error that I now seen parroted here in the reply by Andy888. I believe that Mike targets all types and categories of counterfeits indiscriminately. He should instead target only the illegal type. Only the type that threatens all collectors.

Andy888 read the thread and in response to my questions answers precisely that we are talking about ALL counterfeits. Not just Canadian. Read what he says. His quote starts with my actual words:
Quote:
swamperbob: "You are all missing the real issue. Are all counterfeits the same? Is that a simple enough question?"
My Answer: Simple answer, yes all counterfeits are the same.
That is the precise error that needs correction in every article published on the topic of counterfeit coinage.

So what exactly is your position on all counterfeits? Is Andy888 correct? Is Mike Marshall correct? Or are some counterfeits actually NOT illegal as is my contention?

Andy888's comments and those like it are precisely what caused me to respond. The coin collecting world needs to understand that legal counterfeits of non-circulating coins pose no threat to our hobby. All of the legal counterfeits that will ever be made have already been made. The makers are all dead. The coins no longer circulate as specie in day to day transactions. No one will ever be defrauded by them in commerce. Provided all sales correctly describe these counterfeits no one will ever be defrauded. There is no reason at all to continue destroying them. Yet everyday people who have been misled by incorrect published statements continue to destroy and deface valuable counterfeit coins.

With time the realization will finally occur that even early Canadian coins were counterfeited historically and that those early counterfeits coins should have been properly documented and studied before they were placed safely in a museum for future generations to study. The time may come when even Canadian coins become a valuable subset of numismatics. That is for Canadians to decide, but before you decide consider all the old counterfeits that are being lost for future collectors right now by continuing the myth that all counterfeits are the same.

Andy888 goes on to say a second time
Quote:
YES, all counterfeits are the same and should be destroyed or returned to the appropriate government authority.


Where do I send my collection of Roman fourees? How about the 700 I have that were Colonial Spanish issues or the 3,000 examples from the First Mexican Republic. Where do they go?

Will you all finally agree that there are Legal to own counterfeits and that some are very valuable.

It is -the NF types- that threaten the hobby.

Finally, from what I gather from speaking at length with Gordon today, he was not simply bullied for merely possessing Canadian counterfeits but threatened with being reported and imprisoned. He was also bullied for selling counterfeits of the completely legal type. His business was damaged and he was damaged - both financially and mentally.

That is still wrong and making sport of him was undignified and uncalled for.

I hope my comments actually cause people to start thinking about the topic so persecution ceases.

Andy888 was 100% correct when he said:


Quote:
I understand that swamperbob is close to this subject since he is the author of a book about counterfeits as well as a personal friend of Gord's.


I am close to the subject and have been for over 61 years. My collection of CCC types is literally massive. I have made the proper handling of my collection upon my death a priority in my will.

My mother's brother Edouard Levesque (yes, my mother's family was Canadian) was a lifelong counterfeiter who lived in the US and he manufactured Mexican 8 Reales and Morgan dollars to make a living. He did so for over 40 years. He was never arrested or charged with a related crime. He was however a career criminal. I do not believe it was right for him to do what he did. I have tried but am still unable to identify all of the individual types he made. But in writing my book, I decided it was time, before I died, to set the record straight. To that end I have attempted to develop a scientific approach to the analysis and classification of counterfeit coins so that in the future collectors will know what to look for and, if the choose, they will be better prepared to avoid CCC types.

I do applaud all efforts directed at ending the inflow of Numismatic Forgeries and will join anyone in that pursuit. But I do not support the continued persecution of collectors who like myself enjoy a different facet of numismatics.

I hope no one takes my comments wrong. I am also trying to protect a fragile friend.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  11:09 am  Show Profile   Check 47P7's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob...
read again!!!
this is all about Canadian coins, current and back to 1858!!
These are all legal money.. the stuff you buy bread and scotch with, and pay your taxes with!!!!
Any date before 1858 does not come under this Canadian law.
Not roman, not moon money, not any other money...JUST Canadian Money, legal Canadian money!
But you are "choosing not to understand this and convolute the issue" until someone might say: ok, you are right, just to silence you and satisfy your ego.
BUT, remember, everybody here and beyond knows you are wrong!!
You are asking for an apology for someone else? Do you really know what an apology means?

OH, before I forget it,
"He should instead target only the illegal type. Only the type that threatens all collectors."

Would you please tell us what an legal counterfeit is?
Edited by 47P7
08/05/2021 11:14 am
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 Posted 08/05/2021  11:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't own or want any counterfeit coins and believe they should be stopped for the sake of the hobby.

I googled your question about if it is legal to own Canadian counterfeit coins and found that it is illegal to own or possess in Canada for any reason.

I never researched about any other Country so it could be legal in the United States but Canada is a definite No not allowed the penalty is jail term.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  1:19 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are many countries around the world where the possession
of Counterfeits is allowed and most dealers around the world have a
so called " Black Cabinet " for study purposes and reference .
They will never be sold to deceive , but the education alone derived
could save one from getting hammered.
One area of interest I have is British evasions ( spurious examples of
Regal Halfpennies from the era of George III 1760s to 1770s ) .
There is a catalogue , and they are historically fascinating and collectible.
Since Regal halfpennies were legal tender in the North American
Colonies , I live in fear of the RCMP knocking on my front door .NOT !
I absolutely abhor the Chinese Crap that has inundated the Canadian
and World Coin Market and do my part to combat this garbage .
In reality to a knowledgeable numismatist most of the Crap coming from
the Far East is laughable , but they are getting better at it and WILL be a
Huge problem in the not too distant future .
Mike Marshall is to be complimented for his efforts in stopping the
proliferation of Canadian Decimal. Counterfeits , but the headwinds
are immense . In essence a game of "WACKAMOLE " exists .
Reasons for this are many fold including but not limited to the
following .
First , since the RCMP dialled back their interest in counterfeits,
little to no interest in pursuing the issue .
Second the CBSA is absolutely at fault . They have for years had
the necessary tools to stop importation of this stuff . They care , not a
toss!
Third , collectors lack of knowledge when pursuing a hobby when they
first enter the field . It continues to amaze me that many throw thousands
at Numismatic Coins without even spending 30 Dollars on a numismatic book.
Fourth , human greed , the perception of an unbelievable bargain. The Chinese
would not continue to make this stuff unless there was a market !
I absolutely see the points that @SwamperBob is making in his comments.
There is a huge difference in Contemporary Counterfeits that have existed
for hundreds , thousands of years and the Modern garbage Mike Marshall
directs his losing battle and efforts towards .
In my own personal opinion , the destruction of the Contemporary Counterfeit
Collection alluded to in the CCN article is a crime in its self . Suppression of
knowledge in the field of Numismatics is also " Criminal"
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 Posted 08/05/2021  1:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
47P7 You were the second to comment on this thread. That was early July. The thread sat there dormant for over a month before I was informed of it's existence.

In my response - asked a question or better yet suggested an error in definition of counterfeit was made in the article and that question directed the topic to the wider discussion of Counterfeits in general terms.

I state that just to be clear that you sir are wrong about the topic being ONLY post 1858 Canadian coins.

However, you ask: Would you please tell us what an [sic] legal counterfeit is?

Yes, I would be happy to tell you what a legal counterfeit is.

For the record, the question you ask is not specifically directed at post 1858 Canadian coinage and neither is my answer. However, all coinage is included.

A legal counterfeit is one that is NOT illegal.

That is the simplest definition I can come up with. If something is not illegal - it is legal.

What makes a counterfeit legal must be considered in the light of what makes one illegal.

The first necessity to make a counterfeit illegal is the authority required to do so.

This responsibility falls to government which enacts laws to protect citizens from offenses that could harm them financially (or physically - not applicable here).

The inverse is also true. If no appropriate authority exists the counterfeit becomes legal. If the issuing government ceases to exist the counterfeit ceases to be illegal and therefore it becomes legal. There is no third status in a counterfeit case.

The second necessary element needed to make a counterfeit illegal is the willingness on the part of the government to prosecute the case under counterfeit statutes.

If there is no longer a crime to be prosecuted as counterfeiting based on either minimal face value (e.g. lack of actionable damages) or lack of intent to defraud, then the counterfeit is effectively considered to be legal.

At this point, the commerce statutes or consumer laws take over and the crime becomes fraud not counterfeiting. The intent to defraud consumers (coin collectors) is the crime that is enforced in relation to Numismatic Forgeries from China.

Based on the foregoing, I choose to define a legal counterfeit as;

A legal counterfeit is any copy of a non-circulating coin that was made at the same time as the originals were in general circulation (i.e. not modern) that was intended to circulate in day-to-day commerce as a face value fraud. Legal counterfeits are the formerly "illegal" counterfeits that are no longer enforceable as "crimes" for any one of a number of reasons;

1. The country that monetized the coin no longer exists.
2. The country still exists but the coin is no longer monetized (e.g. It has been demonetized).
3. The country still exists but no longer views the crime as a prosecutable offense under counterfeit statutes.

There are literally millions of outdated laws on the books worldwide that will never be prosecuted. The operational validity of any law is based on the enforcement of that law.

47P7 Do you actually spend silver Canadian coins to purchase bread and scotch with? I doubt it. Why not? Simply because with time things change. Silver coinage is gone from circulation at face value because silver values have risen. The face value (token value) in comparison to the metallic (intrinsic) value is so low that no right minded (i.e. knowledgeable) person would spend a silver coin for a tiny fraction of its intrinsic value.

In the same way, a crime thought to be serious in 1893 (Here I am citing the US federal prosecution of a ring of counterfeiters in Boston, Mass for making and uttering Indian Head cents dated 1893.) would never be prosecuted today under the counterfeiting statutes. Today the only crime that would be prosecuted in connection of the sale of such a counterfeit 1893 Indian cent would be under fraud statutes. Without fraud in the transfer of ownership there is no prosecutable crime. Hence what once was illegal has become legal.

When you simply recite the letter of the law, you fail to consider the potential of actual enforcement and you void your argument.

Is that clear?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  2:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pacificoin Three cheers for you.

Finally a voice of reason, that sees through the obscuring haze of misunderstanding.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  3:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add purelywasted to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An interesting read so far...

I can't speak for every jurisdiction, but the absence of successful prosecution does not suddenly make an illegal act legal. It may greatly diminish the chances your illegal act of being prosecuted and/or convicted, but it does not change the underlying law. A good example of this is drug laws in Canada, it is still illegal to posses many substances here, but there is little to no active prosecution for certain offenses/quantitates, but it does not change the fact that possession of them is still illegal and you may be charged.

While I'm not familiar with the person in question, they seem to have been selling current Canadian coins (1858+), which is illegal, the law is clear. I'm not sure if the fragments printed in the article represents the entirety of Mike Marshall's response or just an edited portion, but I would agree that a "counterfeit is a counterfeit" (collectability/historical significance/etc... are separate questions, but it does not change the fact that it is a counterfeit). While some exceptions exist for items with a murky history, is it generally disputable whether something was counterfeit or not?



Quote:
A legal counterfeit is any copy of a non-circulating coin that was made at the same time as the originals were in general circulation (i.e. not modern) that was intended to circulate in day-to-day commerce as a face value fraud. Legal counterfeits are the formerly "illegal" counterfeits that are no longer enforceable as "crimes" for any one of a number of reasons;

1. The country that monetized the coin no longer exists.
2. The country still exists but the coin is no longer monetized (e.g. It has been demonetized).
3. The country still exists but no longer views the crime as a prosecutable offense under counterfeit statutes.


Canada's laws seem to be limited to "current" Canadian coinage, but maybe foreign money/tokens/etc.. is covered elsewhere (current is defined as 1858+, not what is commonly circulated, but in reply to an earlier comment, silver is still found in circulation). It is interesting in the United States Code Section Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 25 they cover both "current" (486) and "any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins" (489), when using/possessing/giving away a person can be imprisoned/fined. The Hobby Protection Act (HPA) requires an item to be stamped as "COPY" with no mention of any current status or legal tender, which seems to allow for counterfeit as long as they are appropriately marked, no clear indication of when the item was made(CCC or NF).

@swamperbob, I did not find any reference to your definition, is this something you came up with or is it based in law? (still learning and curious).


Quote:
Today the only crime that would be prosecuted in connection of the sale of such a counterfeit 1893 Indian cent would be under fraud statutes. Without fraud in the transfer of ownership there is no prosecutable crime. Hence what once was illegal has become legal.


I'm assuming you are referring to 490 and dealing with minor coins. I would assume this would only apply if they are being used at face value, not sold at a premium as a unmarked copy/fake/etc...

I can see the interest and appeal of counterfeit coins (CCC or NF), whether it be an area of study or filling spaces in your collection for expensive/unobtainable coins (eg. 1921 $0.05 and $0.50), but this seems to be a legal grey area at best and it is easy to fall into the category of illegal. An area which I avoid.

At the end of the day, I don't know if all/any the 10,000+ counterfeit coins Mr. Nichol's sold over the last 20 years were marked as COPY or if he intended to defraud anyone, but the examples posted in the article seem to show that at least some of them were known counterfeits of "current" Canadian coinage, which seem to make it illegal in both Canada and the USA. I am glad people like Mike Marshall are around to take on the fight against counterfeit coins and help protect the hobby. I think it is a good thing that Mr. Nichols is no longer selling counterfeit Canadian coinage.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
purely wasted You may be hit by lightning or an asteroid or a falling hunk of blue ice. But you still go out. Why? Your actions are based on risk assessment.

No prosecution makes a law a paper tiger. The fact seems to be that no cop will take action - so why fear arrest?

You basically asked if I am making this all up.

The basis in law is Desuetude.

In law, desuetude (/d#618;#712;sju#720;#618;tju#720;d, #712;d#603;sw#618;-/; from French désuétude, from Latin desuetudo 'outdated, no longer custom') is a doctrine that causes statutes, similar legislation, or legal principles to lapse and become unenforceable by a long habit of non-enforcement or lapse of time. It is what happens to laws that are not repealed when they become obsolete. It is the legal doctrine that long and continued non-use of a law renders it invalid, at least in the sense that courts will no longer tolerate punishing its transgressors


I just love that last line.

I guess since I came originally from Massachusetts, I have never had an innate fear of some portions of the written law in a technical sense. Boston had hundreds of famous laws still on the books when I was a kid. They were called BLUE LAWS. Everyone ignored them simply because they are malum prohibitum (wrong because prohibited by statute) and not malum in se (intrinsically wrong).

An unenforced law (also called a symbolic law) is a law which is formally in effect (de jure), but is usually (de facto) not penalized by a jurisdiction. Such laws are usually ignored by law enforcement, and therefore there are few or no practical consequences for breaking them.

Some folks who love following outdated rules think that failure to live by these unenforced laws undermines the whole legal system. I do not.

So there is a clear legal basis for disputing the observations made here by the majority. As I have stated elsewhere, I have spoken to several attorneys regarding this topic.

The THREATS made to Gordon directly that he will do time if he is reported by his melliferous persecutor was, is and will remain simply a bullying tactic by an individual who for some reason takes pleasure in making other people tremble at his very name.

I dislike people who bully others. As a kid, I loved beating up bullies in particular when they picked on my younger brother who was autistic or on similarly disadvantaged people.

Gordon told me I would face an uphill battle explaining this to some Canadians. Now I can see his point.

But I hope some people at least get the point that consumer fraud laws are the best way to go to protect the hobby from the worthless junk coming from China.

Purelywasted You say that current is defined as 1858+. May I ask where you got that theory from?

Regarding your citation of US Law: United States Code Section Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 25 they cover both "current" (486) includes in the opening section of the law a clear limiting clause that reads:
Quote:
Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money,
The citation by its very nature indicates it deals with current circulating money because it uses the predicate terms utters or passes.

Owning selling counterfeit coins does NOT involve making or uttering or passing.

So what is CURRENT MONEY?

Quote:
The currency of the country : whatever is intended to and does actually circulate as currency; every species of coin or currency. Miller v. McKinney. 5 Lea (Tenn.) 90. In this phrase the adjective "current" is not synonymous with "convertible." It is employed to describe money which passes from hand to hand, from person to person, and circulates through the community, and is generally received. Money is current which is received as money in the common business transactions, and is the common medium in barter and trade. Stalworth v. Blum, 41 Ala. 321.
{emphasis added}

Purelywasted You then cite HPA. That is a US Consumer Protection Act that specifically applies to copies made after 1979 that enter the US and the implied intent is to DEFRAUD COLLECTORS. These are not passed or uttered. They are intended for Fraud. Under those laws Gordon's 1858 coin if it can be demonstrated by clear provenance to have been made prior to 1979 or if the coin happened to appear in a pre-1979 publication or catalog - it does NOT need to be stamped COPY and it can be sold legally provided the sale contains NO element of Fraud. Everyone remains protected.

The laws that need to be enforced are the statutes against CONSUMER FRAUD. Counterfeiting laws are a classic toothless paper tiger as applied to face value formerly circulating coins.

The Chinese are undertaking the largest consumer fraud operation likely in world history and we are collectively wasting our time discussing issues that are legally already settled.

The Canadian law has been rendered moot by the principles of desuetude. They are dead - done - over.

GET IT YET?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 08/05/2021  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamper ... I congratulate you on the ability to read all our minds and what our actual intent was/is. I think that maybe you should spend some time with your American lawyer advisors and try to straighten up the laws down South. All your thread comments here have been in the Canadian subsection of the CoinCommunity sites. And then it's in the formal sub-forum named/called "Canadian Coins and Colonial Tokens". And you are amazed that we are talking about Canadian monies and the laws pertaining to our fraud and/or counterfeiting problems and NOT about Spanish/Mexican 8 reals or British tokens or contemporary Roman coinage? You vouched for and applauded your friend for buying/selling modern fakes of collectible coins and did nothing to stop him. You castigated a person who is doing more to help our Canadian numismatic pastime than any of your studies, papers or projects in the US. You are basing much of what you say according to a numismatic rag that has questionable accuracy at best and downright false information in almost every issue. As a side note to this discussion, at least 75% of the people that have posted in this thread also had/have cancelled their CCN subscriptions just because of the bad info it has put forth in the past few years. I suggest that you talk to your friend, Mr Nichols, to find out what he knew and when and how many thousands of $$$ he made by selling known fake coins. You are basing most of your supposed verbal ammunition on what HE interpreted from the CCN article and what, exactly, Mike M told him; that is if, in fact Mike ever actually talked to him. I'm amazed that the moderator on here has not locked this thread up. All you have done is question our laws, our interpretation of them, the stupidity of the posters that question your intent or accuracy, and then coming across as an American blowhard who has a sad friend and a few lawyer friends. I will repeat SPP's initial remark ... Boo Hoo!
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 Posted 08/05/2021  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Check 47P7's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 47P7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob
When is it going to be apparent for you and your ego that this whole exercise is about, and ONLY about, Canadian legal Money and nothing else!!!!!!!!!!!!
and Canadian Money falls under Canadian Law!!! Anywhere in the world.
And Canadian Law, under the Interpol/Government agreements with each other, can be enforced in other member countries after the due process required.
Illegal is illegal, regardless of what YOU think or believe, or want to believe, or your ego allows you to believe.
Admittedly, it can be a can of worms that is better not opened because some worms can have 2 heads.
However, if you separate your opinions into two, or maybe 3 levels datewise and country legalities you might get a lot more favorite words.

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 Posted 08/05/2021  8:09 pm  Show Profile   Check nickelsguy's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nickelsguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
swamperbob you insinuate many times in your posts that I bullied this individual. Read the article. I never had any interaction with him as best as I can recall. CCN was informed by me that I was discussing Canadian coinage and that I had no interest in commenting on counterfeit world coins. Do not put words in my mouth. Read my comments about Black cabinet collections. Take exception to that if you will. I talk from the experience of dealing with family's that thought they had a large estate(coinage wise) and also neophyte collectors who were duped by counterfeits. To research fakes and educating about them was a choice I made.
In Canada, the Law is BLACK AND WHITE! A fake is a fake! I never bullied your friend. I also stand by my stance on counterfeits.
For the record I have been involved with numerous Police interactions with sellers (unknowing) as well as blatant fraudsters. Some were CCC coins and some were NF. In every circumstance the money was returned and the offending people were warned to cease and desist in selling counterfeit coins. That was the choice of the Police.
Your defending your friend and your passion for your chosen research is admirable. Your opinions are just that, your opinions. Mine just happen to be shall we say a tad different. Mike Marshall
p.s. https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/counter...ine-1.306468
Edited by nickelsguy
08/05/2021 8:13 pm
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 Posted 08/05/2021  11:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
okiecoiner
I tried to move this discussion to the World coin forum where it belongs - however, Coin Community Forum rules did not allow me to do so. I could not even post new thread on the same topic there. So like it or not, based on CCF rules my question has to remain on the floor here. It does not matter that this is a Canadian forum the issue at hand is of world wide interest and it is not restricted to just Canada.

47P7 You also are not reading what I wrote. An unenforced law is no law at all. Silver change has not been current money by legal definition since roughly 1969. You are about 50 years too late to classify an 1858 silver coin as current money. It therefore can not be a counterfeit. It is a CCC coin. I will admit that the hobby needs a different name but for now we do not have one.

nickelsguy I was really hoping you would join the discussion to get confirmation or a denial of what I have been told. I am going only by what I was told by Gordon, Jesse and others regarding actions you have taken against "counterfeit" coins falling under your definition of the word.

I am not opposed to any attempt to stop the inflow of Chinese made Numismatic Forgeries into Canada or the US. I have been doing as much as I could to educate people about this class of worthless garbage since 1999 when I decided to go public with my lifelong collecting interest for the first time.

Someone (who?) did bully Gordon by causing the removal of several auctions of coins that were in his opinion CCC types that he had on eBay. He believes that was you. I don't know.

So are you now saying you have never had an auction of Gordon Nichols stopped? As far as I know, Gordon has never sold anything that would classify legally as a counterfeit of current money.

You said here that you are only interested in Canadian counterfeits of current coins which are illegal to own or possess. I agree that counterfeits of current Canadian coins are illegal. They are just as illegal in the US as are US counterfeit coins of current money.

Where we differ is on the legal meaning of current money. I wrote out my definition above. I will restate it here in case you did not read that.


Quote:
Current Money is the currency of the country : whatever is intended to and does actually circulate as currency; every species of coin or currency. Miller v. McKinney. 5 Lea (Tenn.) 90. In this phrase the adjective "current" is not synonymous with "convertible." It is employed to describe money which passes from hand to hand, from person to person, and circulates through the community, and is generally received. Money is current which is received as money in the common business transactions, and is the common medium in barter and trade. Stalworth v. Blum, 41 Ala. 321.


I have emphasized the key statements. Nowhere in that definition is the concept of a monetized coin mentioned as synonymous with current. The words "...received as money...." refers to a face value (fiat value) not intrinsic value.

Do you have a definition of "current" taken from Canadian law that is different than the one I posted above? In particular one that extends the definition of current to include non-circulating coins that have assumed an "intrinsic value" status.

I contend that Canadian silver coinage ceased being current money shortly after silver prices rose in 1969, in the same way that US silver coins did. At that point silver coins became either bullion items (intrinsic value) or numismatic items (collector value). Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits of those same coins, at that same point cease being legal counterfeits and reverted to either bullion or numismatic item status.

Sales of bullion and numismatic items (genuine or fake) are covered in the US by Consumer protection statutes and laws relating to fraud in commerce. Among these laws is the HPA - the Hobby Protection Act. A CCC coin is subject to these laws and no longer to Counterfeit laws per se.


Quote:
So my point number 1. What proof do you have that your assumption about what current money means in Canada is actually correct?


You believe that
Quote:
In Canada, the Law is BLACK AND WHITE! A fake is a fake!
That is where I believe you are making a second error. That statement (or one very close in meaning) appeared in the CCN Article. You say you stand by it. Fine. But in reality there are multiple kinds of non-genuine coins. Not all are "counterfeits of current money". From ancient fourees to coins made in the nineteenth century many of these non-genuine coins are also not "current money". Actual "counterfeits of current money" are treated as worthless trash that needs to be turned over to the appropriate authorities and/or destroyed.


Quote:
So my point number 2. On what basis do you assume all classes of non-genuine coins are in the same group as "counterfeits of current money".


I am concerned because I have been told that you do not make a distinction between NF and CCC types when seeking termination of auctions. Recently made NF types are fraudulent based on original intent and they can be pursued on the basis of consumer protection and fraud statutes. NF types are NOT counterfeits because they are not entering circulation. Counterfeits of current money like loonies or toonies or paper currency are what counterfeit statutes were made for.

CCC coins are simply NOT actually counterfeit under the laws as written either. If you object to their sale you need to change the law. When a CCC coin is properly described and placed for sale it threatens no one.

These CCC coins are not the types I encounter in estates where an elderly investor was duped into buying Chinese fakes. I see that frequently and it sickens me. I have been hired to appraise estate collections for attorneys and at times I had to break the news that a collection that cost thousands was worthless.

This junk must be stopped at point of entry by stronger consumer laws and by insisting all NF types be permanently marked so their real status is readily discernable to everyone.

That is my considered opinion and I will await your comments either confirming or rebutting the positions I have expressed.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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