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Walking Back In Time From 1600 To Antiquity By Decades (V3.0)

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 Posted 11/29/2021  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a couple of the St. Stephens which are slightly different. Happy to post them here if you guys would like to see them.
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 Posted 11/29/2021  6:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@grin, another great coin to post. A couple housekeeping items though. First, according to rule 4, the first date that a coin could be should be in the current decade. Your most recent post would be better to have been posted when we tackle the decade of the 1390s. It helps keep us organized. We will get there soon, so not a big deal though. Second, rule 6 suggests to let someone else post their coin in between your posts. This helps encourage others to post by avoiding huge dumps of coins from one person, but I don't want you holding back anything. Even if no one else has posted a coin in a day or so, please add an addition coin to the thread. Thx!

Added: @t360, as long as they fit into this decade, then yes please add them to our thread. Thx!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 11/29/2021  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Two additional gros with St. Stephen kneeling, struck from 1406-15 by the Metz Bishopic. Drawing of Roberts 8932 for comparison.

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 Posted 11/29/2021  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both are great @t360, but that top one is in superb condition. Well done!
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 11/29/2021  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@t360, that first one is just amazing!

I recall that on another thread there was a discussion of date ranges and variations for this type. I don't have any references, so I need to plead ignorance other than to say that my example (photo belows) matches your first one as best I can tell, comparing the minute details of the obverse legend:
(hand) S'*STEPh*P | ROThO'*m* where * is a rosette

These details are somewhat different from the Roberts drawing, which has
(hand) * S'.ST#1028;Ph*P | :ROThO*M .

No idea if these differences are significant in the dating, but I recall in that earlier discussion there are a lot of different date ranges given for this type by different auction houses.

And ... yes, St. Stephen's feast day is often observed on Dec. 26. The legend on the Metz coin refers to him as the "protomartyr" or first martyr, as his death is described in Acts as having occurred not long after Jesus' death according to Christian tradition

Mine:



Edited by tdziemia
11/29/2021 9:57 pm
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 Posted 11/29/2021  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Grinya to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@JohnConduitt, 812, sorry, this was my misprint
Edited by Grinya
11/30/2021 08:47 am
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 Posted 11/30/2021  03:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Grinya to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Spence, by fact no coins of Shadi Beg of 1399 are known, therefore I am 99% sure that my coin fits the time period. And 1% that this is later posthumous imitation:)
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 Posted 11/30/2021  06:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok good to known@grin. We are all good!

Anyone else have a coin to this decade? Otherwise, let's drop back starting tomorrow am.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 11/30/2021  08:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Grinya to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have some more:))

Will use the last possibility and post one more dang of Shadi Beg Khan (Ordu mint), non-dated, type minted at 805-810AH (1403-1408) Sagdeeva 482


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 Posted 11/30/2021  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnConduitt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Anyone else have a coin to this decade?

This is a very good post for finding out the date you had for your coin in wrong. So I may have without realising it

Quote:
No coins of Shadi Beg of 1399 are known.

As a case in point, I thought this scruffy coin was 1399. But @Grinya has pointed out it isn't.

Shadi Beg Khan Dang, 1403-1408

Ordu mint (Sagdeeva 482)
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 Posted 11/30/2021  10:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Grinya to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In August 1399 the preceedor of Shadi Beg Khat - Timur Qutlugh - won the great battle of the Vorskla River against Grand Duke Vytautas of Lithuania. And he was killed some time after this.
Therefore Shadi Beg Khan started his rule either at the very end of 1399 or at 1400. But anyway, some time was needed to prepare to the minting of the coins with his name:)
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 Posted 11/30/2021  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There's a bit of a conversion complication here. 802 AH = Sep 1399 to Aug 1400, which means it should probably convert to 1400, not 1399; coins of Shadi Beg dated 802 AH are in fact known, though not from this specific mint, it seems. 801 AH is firmly in Timur Qutlugh's reign, and in fact there are coins with his name dated 802 AH (again, apparently not of this specific mint).

On @JohnConduitt's coin, I read 807 AH, which Habibur converts to 9 Jul 1404 - 27 Jun 1405 and Date Converter converts to 19 Jul 1404 - 7 Jul 1405.
Both options are majority 1405, though in Habibur's case only barely (176 days in 1404, 178 days in 1405). Note that the difference between Julian and (proleptic) Gregorian calendars is 9 days at this point, so if DC's listing is correct Gregorian (as it explicitly says) then Habibur's (which doesn't specify) is only one day off from Julian.

(Checking the year 802 AH, Habibur includes 29 Feb 1400 and DC doesn't, so Julian vs. Gregorian seems correct, the extra day aside. For all we know it's Habibur that has the correct Julian and DC that is a day off in their Gregorian.
I'm not sure what the correct calendar to convert into is. Europe was obviously using Julian by this point, Gregorian not having been invented until the late 16th century, but, as previously mentioned on this thread, large parts of Europe also made a mess out of the New Year at the time, which makes comparisons trickier.)
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 Posted 11/30/2021  4:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Grinya to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ok, by the way, I have a chance to post one more coin. It can't be attributed to the 1400-1410, but probably to a little bit later time... But I couldn't define exact type and approximate time period within the rule of the duke...

Grand principality of Ryazan - Denga - Fyodor Olgovich (1402-1427). Ryazan tamga countermarked on the imitation of a Golden Horde dirham


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 Posted 11/30/2021  4:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnConduitt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
On @JohnConduitt's coin, I read 807 AH

Thank you. Yes it's right there if you look, which I obviously didn't. But as you say, if the converted date is July 1404-July 1405 (+/- some days), it's a moot point for this thread if we're going for the Gregorian calendar.


Quote:
Grand principality of Ryazan - Denga - Fyodor Olgovich (1402-1427)

Nice coin. I posted one from his son earlier on, with even less precise dates (because his reign was longer - 1427-1456).
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 Posted 11/30/2021  6:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Got a few more coins slipped under the wire, which is great! Are we ready to drop back to the 1390s in the am?
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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