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Walking Back In Time From 1600 To Antiquity By Decades (V3.0)

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 Posted 12/06/2021  4:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnConduitt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Caffa made their silver Aspres. I have one, but Retovskiy didn't assign the type I own to an exact period of time. Anyway it is later than current decade.

Yes I posted my 'akche' in the 1430s, although that's another of those coins with a date range so wide it's lucky to get it in the right century.


Quote:
This is a pul also with a date 872 which means 782AH, Qrim al-Jadidah mint.

That's a nice coin for a Golden Horde bronze. The date is clear, even if it is in a peculiar order.

You might recognise this coin with a similarly confusing date. It's 'twice inverted' (first upside down, then back to front, as read in Eastern Arabic numerals):

vv^ = ^^v = v^^
778 = 887 = 788

Tokhtamysh Khan Dang, 1386 (AH788)

Saray al Jadida. Silver, 1.4g. Sultan/Toktamish Khan/May his reign be long. Rev: Minted/in the city of Saray/778 (Sagdeeva 423/429).

This raises questions for me - how did anyone work out the date? Presumably, they were working from Tokhtamysh Khan's known reign, but otherwise it's just rearranging the numbers to fit.

And why were they mixed up? I can guess a few reasons:
- writing the date upside down, so 7s become 8s and 8s become 7s.
- writing the date backwards - the script is right to left, even if numbers in Arabic are meant to be lowest to highest (so would appear in the 'Western' order when written right to left).
- because of the way the numbers are said, you might put the 100, 10 and 1 units in a different order, in the same way Americans write today's date 12/6/21 when we write 6/12/21, because Americans say 'December 6th' and we say '6th of December'.

Otherwise, how does 872 become 782?
Edited by JohnConduitt
12/06/2021 4:15 pm
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 Posted 12/06/2021  6:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't help with these date questions, but did want to comment on great work so far posting coins from this decade!

This Hungarian Denar can be dated to 1383 AD. The obv inscription is +MONETA MARIE and the rev inscription is + REGINE VNGARIE. It is attributed as Huszar 566.



"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 12/06/2021  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This raises questions for me - how did anyone work out the date? Presumably, they were working from Tokhtamysh Khan's known reign, but otherwise it's just rearranging the numbers to fit.
I have a coin with a similarly messed-up date for the 1370s; in that case what helped me was that it seems to have been a single-year type, and the date I had could be plausibly rearranged to mean the same year.

For the 1380s I have this coin, with a more prosaic date problem - it's extremely weakly struck...



Timurid Empire (Western Chagatai Khanate)
Timur in the name of Suyurghatmish
AR miri or 2 dinars
Furk mint, 789 AH (1387 AD)
Zeno cat. 6020, Album 2367?

I can only read the 7 and hints of the 8; anything right or down of that is erased by the weak strike. Fortunately there aren't many date options for this brief type.
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 Posted 12/07/2021  07:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The parade of Central Asian coins from this era is truly impressive

This tiny, battered denar from Poland (Krakow mint) can be dated to 1384-1386, the years of the reign of Jadwiga as Queen of Poland, before her marriage to Jogaila of Lithuania and their joint reign 1386-1399. It is related to @spence's coin yesterday, as Jadwiga was the younger sister of Queen Maria of Hungary, both daughters of Lajos the Great of Hungary (who had also ruled as king of Poland from 1370-1382). She was canonized as a saint of the Roman Catholic church by Pope John Paul II in 1997. 11 mm. Kopicki 349 (as attributed by Karl Stephens)



Obv: Arpad-Angevin shield
Rev: Piast (Polish) crowned eagle

Edited by tdziemia
12/07/2021 08:09 am
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 Posted 12/07/2021  08:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Grinya to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Referring to Tokhtamysh Khan it may be named invasion [of his coins into the forum]. At least in Russia his name is mostly used with this word after he destroyed Moscow in 1382.



To continue this invasion I'm posting a pul of his time Sarai mint 890AH (if I can correctly read the date based on the upper part of the figures) which corresponds to 1388.



The interesting thing that I weight about 2.5 grams which is more heavy comparing to the puls of that time, so, maybe it is 2 puls coin:)
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 Posted 12/07/2021  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EddieDiz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The dateable ones.

1385 G-M Hungarian Denar under Queen Maria;Huszar 569,Unger 443d,Pohl 114-4 with a legend variation REInA VnGARIE on obverse and MOnETA MARIA on reverse.




1385 G-M Hungarian Denar under Queen Maria with the more standard legend;Huszar 569,Unger 443d,Pohl 114-4.









This is another one Spence already posted. 1383 Lily-Lily Hungarian Denar under Queen Maria;Huszar 566,Unger 442f,Pohl 112-2.


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 Posted 12/07/2021  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Grinya to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Besides Golden Horde I have this Ottoman Empire Manghir of Murad I. The reverse inscription is"[The month of] Ramadan [of the year] 790 [AH].", so it may be dated not only by exact year, but even by the month:)




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 Posted 12/07/2021  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While this coin doesn't meet our 10 year or less timeframe to bring us forward, I'm still excited to show you my only 14th century gold. This Ducato is from the Italian City of Venice. The obv inscription is ANTO VENEIRO SM VENETI DV and the rev inscription is SIT T XPE DAT QTV REGIS ISTE DVCAT. It is attributed as Biaggi 2853.



"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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 Posted 12/08/2021  12:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EddieDiz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is one nice piece @ Spence.
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 Posted 12/08/2021  09:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beautiful!

I am seeing 1382-1400 for Antonio Venier, but nothing more narrowly attributed on his gold.
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 Posted 12/08/2021  11:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add erafjel to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great diversity in coins this decade! Interesting with the many Eastern coins, far outside my experience. And that ducat is lovely, @Spence.

Here is some more gold for you :

France 1385-88, écu d'or, Charles VI. 1.000 gold, 4.08 g, 28.5 mm. Duplessy 369, Lafaurie 378.




Obv: Crowned royal coat of arms in a shield.
Inscription: KAROLVS DEI GRACIA FRANCORVM REX (Charles by Grace of God King of the Franks).

Rev: Floriated cross in a quadrilobe, crowns and fleurs-de-lys.
Inscription: XPC' VINCIT XPC' REGNAT XPC' IMPERAT (Christ conquers, Christ reigns, Christ commands).

Another of the new types introduced by Charles in 1385, the écu d'or ("golden shield"). (I'm sure there is a bit of something else than gold in it, but the nominal purity is 100.0 %.)

This type was to be minted for more than 250 years, until the 17th century, at which time it was replaced by the louis d'or.

These the first écu d'ors are not hard to find in good condition (easier than later issues). At the moment there are 32 available on MA-Shops, most in good condition. That is a bit surprising for a 14th century hammered coin. I guess a combination of good workmanship at the mints, large production quantities, and hoarding rather than circulation all contribute to this.
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 Posted 12/08/2021  12:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EddieDiz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That was another nice gold piece @ erafjel.

Some of the Date range ones.

1383-85 Hungarian Denar under Queen Maria;Huszar 566,Unger 442a,Pohl 112-1.





1386-95 h Hungarian Denar under Queen Maria;Unger 569,Unger 443a,Pohl 114-5.





1386-95 I Hungarian Denar under Queen Maria ;Huszar 569,Unger 443f,Pohl 114-6.










1386-95 Lily Jungarian Denar under Queen Maria;Huszar 569,443q,Pohl 114-14.



Edited by EddieDiz
12/08/2021 12:51 pm
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 Posted 12/08/2021  12:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Awesome gold! I'm hoping to get a medieval gold coin some day, but I doubt it would be anywhere near as nice as yours.


Here's what the date listing looks like at the moment...

1389 - none yet (would be 791 AH)
1388 - Grinya (790 AH)
1387 - january1may (789 AH)
1386 - Grinya (788 AH)
1385 - EddieDiz
1384 - tdziemia (?)
1383 - Spence, EddieDiz, Grinya (785 AH = Mar 1383-Feb 1384)
1382-81 - none yet (would be 784 and 783 AH)
1380 - JohnConduitt, Grinya (782 AH = Apr 1380-Mar 1381)

Within this decade, converting by the larger part of the year, the AH date is consistently 598 years behind the AD date; the changeover to 599 is partway through the 1370s.
For (roughly) the first third of the 14th century AD (8th century AH) the AH date is exactly 600 years behind the AD date - convenient for conversion!


As mentioned above, I don't have any medieval gold, but I do have this (admittedly not very well photographed) silver coin of Antonio Venier...



Republic of Venice, for use in Crete and nearby colonies
Antonio Venier (1382-1400)
Billon tornesello (.111 silver)
Reverse: +ANTO' VENERIO DVX, cross in inner circle
Obverse: +VEXILIFER VENETIAE, in inner circle, winged lion of St. Mark representing Venice
Numista 76361, there listed as Biaggi 2857

I vaguely recall that @Collects82 had a coin of Antonio's predecessor Michele Morosini, who reigned for a few months in 1382.
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 Posted 12/08/2021  2:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnConduitt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those a nice gold coins. Are they as expensive as English gold?

Quote:
Here's what the date listing looks like at the moment...
I think 1386 (AH788) was my coin

I have another AH782:

Tulyak Dang, 1380-1381 (AH782)

Ordu. Silver, 15mm, 1.5g. Just sultan Bolaq Khan; Let his rule to be long. Kalima, 287 (mirrored year) (Sagdeeva 357).
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 Posted 12/08/2021  2:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnConduitt to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
...and another AH785 (1383):

Timur (Tamerlane) Miri, joint issue with his puppet 'overlord' Suyurghatmish, 1383

Samarkand. Silver, 16mm, 1.5g. Kalima, 785, mint in the margins (zarb Samarkand). By the order of Suyurghatmish - my, Amir Timur Guragan's, word (Album 2375).
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