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2007 S Silver Roosevelt W/ Extra Thickness?

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Pillar of the Community
United States
3534 Posts
 Posted 09/26/2021  9:54 pm  Show Profile   Check Tanman2001's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Tanman2001 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
as to my initial observation of extra thickness, the answer is yes?


I think the answer is no. Your 2007 has normal thickness, but the 2006 you compared it to is thin. So it just looked like it had extra thickness by comparison.

I was just reminded of a 2007-P dime DDO that Ken Potter wrote about previously. It was never listed by Wexler or CONECA (I think just because it was never submitted. I believe it to be a DDO) so many have likely never seen it. Notice the extra thickness east-to-west on the date and TRUST. The modern doubled dies that only show as extra thickness never have the extra thickness evenly distributed throughout the lettering. It is almost always along a certain axis, leaving some parts of the lettering thicker than others. On this example it really stands out on the 2. Look at how much thicker than diagonal stroke of the 2 is compared to the lower horizontal stroke. If you look at your 2007 proof, the thickness of these two strokes is the same.

https://www.numismaticnews.net/arch...dies-ignored
Bedrock of the Community
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United States
53910 Posts
 Posted 09/27/2021  01:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just common either fresh dies or polished. The examples I posted images of are slabed PR-70 Dcam. Highest grade, $15 value. To have them put in a slab, would cost 4X more than the coin would be worth. So the newer proof coins would not be much of any premium when the highest grades are duds. Lower grades even less.
Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Valued Member
United States
178 Posts
 Posted 09/27/2021  06:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dowhat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seems to me that fresh dies would exhibit sharper devices rather than mushy ones. As far as a polishing issues, would that not effect the laser etched frosting on the devices smoothing them out. Coop, can you explain to me, concerning the PCGS images you provided, how you were able to determine which ones were polished and which ones were not. On one pair, the polished one retains the original frosting. On the other pair, the polished example shows a lack of frosting.
Also, wouldn't polishing the dies between runs be more likely to widen the devices as well since they are tapered. If the surface is reduced, then the devices would become wider and the frosting effect would be removed in the process as well.
LDS DDD seems to be a more plausible answer at this point. Just conjecture.
Also, why do you continue to bring up cost/value/slabbing. I have addressed this issue a couple of times in previous replies stating I have no concern or desire to do so.
Having compared this example to about 10 other NGC PR69 DCAM examples sold at Heritage Auctions, none have devices this wide and mushy so it is not a normal example for this year. That leaves DDD as the most plausible explanation. I am sure that my opinion will be refuted in favor of another.
Bedrock of the Community
Australia
19084 Posts
 Posted 09/27/2021  07:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Proof coins generally have squared rim edges, so when stacked with business strikes, they look to have a thicker edge.

The relief may be higher compared to business strikes, but it won't be higher than the rim. In theory, proof coins are still intended to be stacked, although that may never happen.

You may wish to check for weight, but I am sure that it will of the same as for other proofs of the dame date and alloy.
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United States
53910 Posts
 Posted 09/27/2021  11:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Seems to me that fresh dies would exhibit sharper devices rather than mushy ones?

They do. But they are not distorted when the dies are fresher.

Quote:
As far as a polishing issues, would that not effect the laser etched frosting on the devices smoothing them out?

The dies are opposite of a coin. The fields are the outside of the die, the devices are deep into the devices. So when dies are polished, it affects the fields not the tops of the devices.

On the newer dies, when the frosting does fade, they can be laser etched again to produce that surface on the tops of the devices again.

Quote:
Coop, can you explain to me, concerning the PCGS images you provided, how you were able to determine which ones were polished and which ones were not.

On one pair, the polished one retains the original frosting. On the other pair, the polished example shows a lack of frosting.
On the older dies, they only etched the devices once after die creation. As it wore off the die, the coins didn't have the cameo any longer. (Thus the higher prices for the cameo and Dcams of the past)

Quote:
wouldn't polishing the dies between runs be more likely to widen the devices as well since they are tapered. If the surface is reduced, then the devices would become wider and the frosting effect would be removed in the process as well.

It is not the coins that are polished, but the dies are polished. True if you took a proof coin and polished it, it would remove the definition on the coin:



Note while the coin is shiny, the design goes away. When a die is polished the fields are affected reducing the height/width of the devices, even shorting them. Take a look again at the set of 2006-S,2007-S images. The full shaped devices are the fresher die examples. The thinner and distorted devices happened because of the polishing. Just the tops of the devices are still present, the height is reduced making them shorter. Once this is done on the die, there is not going back. The devices can be re-etched to put back the frosting, but the die was altered and all coins for the rest of that dies life will show that the die was altered.

Quote:
LDS DDD seems to be a more plausible answer at this point. Just conjecture.

Proof coins only strike 3K coins. (6K strikes as each proof coin is struck at least twice. Some denominations are struck more with a higher relief) So there is no DDD issues on proof coins. They can be over polished and redone more than once, but because the strong strikes the die strikes are done when they reach there 6K limit.

Quote:
Also why do you continue to bring up cost/value/slabbing. I have addressed this issue a couple of times in previous replies stating I have no concern or desire to do so.[quote]
Examples in the past had a premium if they were high grade coins. So when an example of the highest grade PR-70 and DCAM, only sells for $15, why spend $50 to have it put in a slab? A lot of people don't realize this. Somehow on the internet everyone fields a coin should be put in a holder. But if the coin is less value than the it will sell for, I know I wouldn't do it. If I buy a coin that is in a holder, I pay nothing extra for that coin than what I feel it is worth. The holder means nothing to me. But out there on the web, they go gaga over these coins because they don't know either the cost or have the knowledge of the coins. So I warn all to get the know the coin, before you buy it. Down the road when they go to sell their coins, they will realize then that they wasted their money on the child proof containers.
[quote]That leaves DDD as the most plausible explanation. I am sure that my opinion will be refuted in favor of another.

Each has their own opinion. Which has the facts?

Richard S. Cooper
Some have asked about my images I use and I'm glad to say, you can now you can see the DVD in sections on youtube:
1. Intro, older coins, toned coins 2. Doubled dies 3. Die events, One of a kind errors 4. So called errors, Coin information 5. Coin information Types and Varieties, Overlays
Jefferson nickel doubled dies Wexler/Rebar complete listings

trail dies:http://www.traildies.com/
Edited by coop
09/27/2021 11:34 am
Valued Member
United States
178 Posts
 Posted 09/28/2021  7:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dowhat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Back again. Thanks for the reply Coop. I was anticipating it moments after posting realizing my backwards thinking on the polishing issue. I regretted my assumption forgetting that polishing the fields would reduce the width of the devices rather than widen them. I realized my error soon after pushing "post"
The same applies to the DDD assumption. I says to myself "self" , proof dies are not used to the point of DDD. That is contradictory to a "proof". However, I have seen many low quality proof strikes. Mostly 5 cent.
I am going to try some math here. If there were 875,050 S mint dimes struck in 2007, and each die had an average life of 6000 strikes, that would require about 145-150 working dies for that production. Am I close? Or way off,
The only thing that intriguing me was how messy this proof appeared to me.
It is no big thing. I did my best to illustrate, and provided images and references to convey that I have not observed anywhere I go, that resembles this example.
I ask anyone in this discussion to link me to one just like this one. I have done my homework, now show me the one that looks the same as this.
I only thought it might be of interest to all.
For goodness sake, all I care about is the silver.
That is where it will end up regardless.
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