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1793 1c Chain Cent Ameri. - Sheldon 1

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 Posted 10/12/2021  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Congratulations! Those are bucket list/ won the lottery coins!
1883-O Nut
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 Posted 10/12/2021  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your kind words.
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 Posted 10/15/2021  6:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi westcoin. Thank you for your kind message about finding this coin in a details holder. Thank you for your research. I don't mind discussing the coin's past in the open because that is the value of sharing things we find as a group on the coin collecting journey together. I don't really check messages, but you can always reach me out here. I've been here a lot lately. Look forward to seeing what you found westcoin.
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 Posted 10/15/2021  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you for your courtesy - I certainly don't want to come off as someone trying to knock the coin in any way as it is a very special piece and you are privileged to be a custodian of it.

The history I found starting with it's encasement in a Details coin via NGC slab. Sold through Heritage from the Carlyle A. Luer Collection at the FUN Show January 3, 2018

Here is the description from the catalog:

Quote:

1793 Chain AMERI. Cent, VF Details
S-1, B-1, Extraordinary Opportunity
1793 1C Chain, AMERI., S-1, B-1, R.4
Mount Removed NGC Details VF
Ex: Carlyle Luer Collection.

Here is an opportunity to acquire a nicely detailed S-1 Chain AMERI. cent at a likely affordable price. Evidence of mounting is seen near 6 o'clock and 12 o'clock on each side, with small solder spots on the edge at those locations. Both sides exhibit trivial marks and old, well-blended scratches with a small rim bruise over AM on the reverse. However, there is no corrosion or porosity on either side, and this piece is exceptionally attractive. A hard coin to grade, but the sharpness grade is VF25. Our net EAC grade Fine 12.

From The Carlyle A. Luer Collection.

January 3, 2018 FUN Tampa #1271

Lot #3115

Sold $21,600.00


The coin in that slab



The coin in holder - cropped showing both sides in high resolution photos:





From what I can tell the coin was cracked out of the Details NGC holder and the reverse was retooled around the LIBERTY to bring out more of the lettering, the coin was smoothed over in some areas to lessen pitting, and areas of discoloration were cleaned up and hidden, and very well done I might add. Without the original photos to go by it's very hard to tell. The areas in red are the spots I believe have been worked on the most, the rim area above LIBERTY and the spot from the field to the rim at 10:00 are the most obvious, the long rectangular scratch or gouge in head isn't so obvious. The last part of the date seems to be much more enhanced now. Areas on the reverse are in line with rim work on the obverse it's not had as much done.





I've been seeing a lot more coins moving from details holders into straight grade holders between the services in the past few years. I suspect it is due to the advances in metal repair on a micro scale, I have little idea how the retooling or fixing is actually done. I'd love to know more, especially how they add missing detail by building up areas that seem worn down. It's very impressive however it's done, and a bit scary that so much metal can be moved and it's nearly undetectable without having before photos.

I'm surprised PCGS didn't catch this in their database of images, as this example has enough other small marks and identifying areas that show it to be the same coin from the NGC details holder. Also considering just how few of these are in existence at all - I'd lay a bet that most have seen at least one trip through the grading service.


The coins certainly deserves a grade of VF but I believe it should also have the details grade assigned to it. How much does that affect the price? I can't say, it's still a very rare coin, and by all current appearances it does look like a VF30 coin to me. However knowing what we now see from it's previous state a few years ago, it's like it underwent plastic surgery. Deceiving? I think so. I'm not placing blame on anyone, as I don't know all the transaction history, such as how had the coin after Heritage sold it as a NGC Details holder, and who submitted it to PCGS and got it in a straight VF30 holder? We will, more than likely, never know this answer.

All in all, it's still one heck of a coin, I'd love to own it myself, even knowing what it's been through.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

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 Posted 10/15/2021  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow. What impressive work westcoin. You should be working in numismatics. I see that all the auction houses I visit are hiring.

For the obverse, it doesn't seem to be the same coin. The 3 in the date in the obverse is almost gone in the details coin, but looks sharply struck in my coin. How do you tool to make that happen? Incredible work westcoin!



I am looking at the reverse and it is unmistakeably the same coin based on the many markers. But I cannot believe that those points of difference and problems have been so flawlessly eliminated. I'm in shock and disbelief. The reverses are an unmistakeable match. Never knew this was possible.

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 Posted 10/15/2021  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Quite the sleuthing there @ westcoin! Great info as always.

I'm very torn on this. On one hand, seeing the before shot, it looks to be very well done. Well enough to get past PCGS. That said, I'm a bit surprised this made it past PCGS. Plastic surgery is a good term to describe it. I sure wouldn't mind owning this one either, but depending what was paid, I don't know how thrilled I'd be either.
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 Posted 10/15/2021  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For me, I think this episode gives the coin another layer of character. I wouldn't consider my life well lived if I had to have spent all of it stowed in a bubble protected from all elements and harm my entire life. To me this marks another colorful chapter in a life interestingly lived. Although I know many won't feel the same, the coin to me has been through what life has thrown at it, survived beautifully and I cherish it more for it.
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 Posted 10/15/2021  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the things I could do with this coin is use it to embarass PCGS's grading daily for missing all the "work" done to it when they graded it. Maybe they'll offer me a tidy sum to end being constantly reminded that their grading is suspect.
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 Posted 10/15/2021  10:04 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If you sent it in to PCGS it certainly wouldn't be even close to the first time they missed a big one. One of my friends was working for them when the $50,000 spot happened on an Indian Head cent they had received, it was hung up on the wall by David Hall and labeled the $50,000 mistake as a remembrance to all of the graders to be extra careful in examining a coin, to either not put the spot on the coin or notice the dang spot I'm not sure, my buddy says it was probably caused through a mishandling of the coin by one of the graders.

It's told in this old blog post from David Hall on PCGS's site.

https://www.PCGS.com/news/PCGS-grad...antee-update
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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 Posted 10/15/2021  11:05 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One thing I do see is an overall look at the coin in side by side comparison, (even though they are the same coin), is the straight grade coin - yours, (one I don't have as good of photos on) is a subtle but obvious change in colors across the entire side of the coin, it's blotchy and likely from heat. I am only speculating, but wouldn't be any surprise the coins are somehow fixed to a jig, scanned and then high powered lasers are used to disturb the metal properties to the point where it could be moved or smoothed. The re-cutting could be done through many, many takes of a programed laser etching (even adding in small imperfections) like a CNC machine using hot light, instead of metal on metal. Even water could be used in ultra high pressure with a robotic armature to direct the stream. The unevenness of color really hit home when you but the photos side by side NS.

I was able to use your photos to transform and contort into the same fit of the photos I have, so they match up, the lighting is from obviously different angles and that makes it tougher. But blinking between them really shows they are the same coin positively, with no doubt. I can't make the animated GIFs like I used to do so easily, with the newer Photoshop. I did figure out how to make a MP4 file but it's huge and doesn't loop smoothly, I'll need a bit more practice before I figure out how to make them easily again. Once you see one coin fade away leaving the other coin and all the marks are the same except certain areas is really neat.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/15/2021 11:53 pm
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 Posted 10/15/2021  11:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Gosh, that's crazy. Looking at it in detail makes my head spin. It can't be the same coin, but it can't not be the same coin. They made 3 and LI reappear out of thin air. One interesting thing is that there's a deep gouge on the new, improved version that isn't on the original, a little southwest of the L. Maybe the doctor dropped his scalpel. Personally, I'm like an elephant - I never forget getting ripped off. I wouldn't be able to look at this coin the same way again. I have a bit of negative bias towards PCGS so that would play into it too I guess.
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 Posted 10/16/2021  12:14 am  Show Profile   Check farrider11's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add farrider11 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your on a roll. Very impressive. AGAIN
Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

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 Posted 10/16/2021  12:59 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Incredible thread.

It's late and I'm tired so bear with here: The OP's coin is a tooled and repaired piece now in a straight graded PCGS holder right?
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 Posted 10/16/2021  03:39 am  Show Profile   Check jacrispies's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Crazy. Just insane.

First of all, nice detective work from westcoin.. I can appreciate the work put in to get all of this information.

Second, how the heck did they do that metal work? The doctor of this coin must've had a big payday. If they cut the metal
in any fashion, it would reveal the red copper underneath. I think westcoin could be right with his speculation.

And finally, thanks to numismatic student for being open to everybody learning about this subject. It definitely gives the coin a colorful background history.
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 Posted 10/16/2021  04:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticsFTW to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is an amazing story behind this coin.
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