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1793 1c Chain Cent Ameri. - Sheldon 1

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 Posted 10/18/2021  12:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would communicate directly with PCGS about it, present them with this evidence, and get in writing exactly what they will offer and do with the coin, based on two scenarios - it's either going to get Details - Tooled or some such, or deemed an outright counterfeit (presumably dies made from the NGC coin if yours is not that actual coin). Then decide from there. For another party to judge authenticity they'll have to crack it out of the slab, and then I'd think all bets are off with PCGS. I'm not speaking from any experience; it's just what I would do.
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 Posted 10/18/2021  12:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you @burfle23. I will have to get the coin out of the safe deposit box in order to photograph the edge. Will see if I can get that done this week.

I am not sure if having PCGS do the work is the best option as there is an obvious misalignment of interests. I think it would be helpful to talk with them once I figure out what I am dealing with here, which is not entirely clear at this time.

In terms of the seller, it was a private collector. I did not transact with him on ebay but he actually has five other chain cents for sale right now on ebay, as well as many other early American coins, mostly in details holders. The five other chain cents he has for sale on ebay are very similar looking. I don't want to contact him claiming that the coin he sold me is doctored or fake and make accusations unless I am sure that that is what we are dealing with here. His ebay offerings can be seen here:

https://www.ebay.com/sch/jlewis90/m.html
Edited by numismatic student
10/18/2021 12:31 pm
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 Posted 10/18/2021  1:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm sure others have noticed, but of the seller's 40 listings: 12 Repaired, 2 Smoothed, 1 Artificial Toning, 2 Altered Surfaces, and 4 Tooled. It's difficult for me not to infer something from that.
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 Posted 10/18/2021  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ns, do you have any return privileges with the seller?
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 Posted 10/18/2021  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@kbbpll - I think the most I can infer is that many early American coins survive in details conditions and high value ones have likely been enhanced in the past to maximize value. At this point it is difficult for me to infer much more.

@coinfrog - We never discussed it so no. If I sold something I would expect finality unless something goes wrong. In any event, the coin is in a PCGS straight holder. The seller is only at fault if he did something to the coin himself and misrepresented it. It is unlikely that this will ever be known. He could have bought it relying on the holder's representation that it is an authentic, straight graded coin like I did. If so, my dispute, if I chose to dispute it, is with PCGS for holdering the coin as it did, making overt representations about authenticity and grade that at this point may or may not be true.

First thing is again, figure out what happened here, weigh the options and then decide a course of action.

Edited by numismatic student
10/18/2021 1:38 pm
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 Posted 10/18/2021  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Understand, thanks. Just curious.
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 Posted 10/18/2021  1:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm sure others have noticed, but of the seller's 40 listings: 12 Repaired, 2 Smoothed, 1 Artificial Toning, 2 Altered Surfaces, and 4 Tooled. It's difficult for me not to infer something from that.


On these high dollar rare example there are a lot of collectors that buy details coins because the high cost of straight grade examples. The seller has sold a lot of high end details coins on eBay over the last couple years. From every thing I see on his eBay listings the seller appears to be a straight shooter, and the seller could be a dealer/collector of high end detail coins.
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 Posted 10/18/2021  4:27 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NumismaticStudent - Everything you have said and how you are handling this is amazing! Thank you.

I should have thought to include Jack pre posting the information I mentioned to you in my message before I posted on the public board here. I knew this was going to be a pretty big and eye opening revelation in the coin market, and why I reached out first in private. You did say to discuss my finding here in the open which I then did (opened Pandora's Box).

Jack Young brought up an interesting train of thought with his previous and ongoing counterfeit research work in the early copper coin field. Could this coin be a counterfeit? I really don't think so, not even from the other coins Jack has uncovered in the Darkside Cabinet from donor coins and such. Possible? Yes Probable? No, that is my opinion only at this point in my research.

My big concern is how this much metal was moved and re-engraved so dang expertly, that it fooled the top authentication service. This should NEVER happen on a coin of this value and importance. With such a small handful available today (considering type, variety and grade range) it is probably less than a dozen. Why wasn't more research done by PCGS before finalizing the grade and sending it out certified? I look at all the better grade early date coins like this I can, there really aren't that many left in the wild (slabbed or raw) and they only come up for sale every so often, (hardly a monthly offering) and only a few larger dealers, specialized dealers or auction firms handle them. This leads me to several conclusions:


1. We have a new counterfeiter in the game now.

2. We have the best coin doctor ever involved in altering coins, using new (and still currently) unknown techniques. In fact so good his work can slip by the top authenticaters in the world.


Thanks for the extra information on individual you purchased the coin from NumismaticStudent. Slider23, you are correct in saying he seems like an individual that sells a fair number of details coins and wouldn't seem to be involved. If we had all the invoices involved in the transactions available to us it would be easier to at least see when the change in appearance of this coin happened.

We know Heritage sold the coin at auction in a Details NGC Holder -> TO WHOM? If they still have the coin in an NGC Details holder then this one is a fake copy. Or the Heritage buyer then sold it, TO WHO?

We know the coin was altered (or faked) and submitted to PCGS raw. If PCGS received it in the details holder for a crossover grade, it would never straight grade as it did. Who was the submitter to PCGS? Even if we know that there is no proof they are the person the doctored the coin, and likely it was sent in through an authorized PCGS dealer that probably knew nothing, so the submitter name may be forever unknown. Though this type of coin is not one to be forgotten in a submission.

The seller of the coin in the VF30 PCGS holder to NumismaticStudent knows where he got the coin from, again only speculation but unlikely they are not the coin doctor/counterfeiter but only a dealer/broker of coins, that probably purchased it without knowing anything.

None of these individuals are going to say anything without court orders, and that is as likely to happen as pigs flying.

I will refrain from any advice on how to handle this coin from Numismatic Students point of view, but he/she seems like the type of person that can handle it just fine, and is remaining remarkably level headed throughout this revelation - kudos to them, for that alone.

We know the seller from eBay sold Numismatic Student the coin in the PCGS straight grade VF30 holder. Where it was then posted about at CCF.

That is where I came in after the coin was posted here on CCF in the Guess the Grade type of post. I called my grade right away in my head after viewing the first photos. I held off posting my guess, as something was bugging me about this coin (like a deja vue). So I held off my grade guess and started to try to satisfy my deja vue feelings about the coin. For anyone still wondering at this point, I am at EF40 on the grade and thinking an EAC grade of VF25/30 as it was/is still a super example of our first officially issued cent from the US Mint. Definitely one of those "Bucket List" coins that all of us US collectors aspire to have in our own collections. One of my biggest "coins that got away" was a similar 1793 Chain Cent S-1 in an early ANACS holder in EF40 I passed on when I could have purchased it (it was 1982 I believe). I've written about it here on CCF in the past.

What a roller coaster this has been, while exciting to uncover the history on it, I am also pretty terrified that we are dealing with a "superfake" technique that can change a coin with little to knowledge of any work being done, the highest compliment to who ever moved the metal on this coin, and I wish/hope you stop and never do it again and that the technique used comes out in the open so that all of us know about it. Reality says that won't happen there are millions of dollars and possibly billions at stake. This metal surgeon has some serious skills, and that should scare all of us collectors, I know it raised the hairs on my arm, when I first realized I was looking at after photos of near perfect coin which only a year or two ago was a coin that was severely damaged, literally impossible as to everything I knew about metal and coin alteration and metal flow and disturbance has been altered in that revelation. Shook me to the core actually. Why I contacted Numismatic Student in private first was for that alone, I wanted to give them the heads up privately. I certainly hope any of our discussion doesn't hurt any potential outcome on the part of NumismaticStudent's decision with whatever path they choose to pursue.

I'm looking forward to better photographs on this coin, hopefully some of the edge if it's possible to get them through the slab. NumismaticStudent please let me know if full resolution images can be obtained from you directly? I'd be happy to set up a drop box for you to deposit them into anonymously, I would love to do some more over lay work with files of the current state with better lighting and straight on full image shots as well as close up cropped areas of where I believe most of the metal was altered and moved. I can also easily share all the files with Jack Young.

EDIT: To add I am also curious as this is the second coin from the same seller that NumismaticStudent purchased in a straight grade holder that previously lived in a details holder. The other being the 1794 dollar, that coin is used as the seller's profile photo at his eBay store. It was discussed on CCF here:

http://goccf.com/t/408717&whichpage=3#3506859

CCF member Adam_E gets all the credit on this uncovering.

I'm now also curious if any sign of the severe rim bump is still present at 4:00 on that 1794 dollar, the NGC holder makes it almost impossible to tell. The reverse has also been changed in a similar way as to this 1793 Chain Cent. The large damaged area around 5:00 on the reverse like a planchet flay or dig has been made much, much smaller and not as noticeable, I need to look at it as well. Too bad there aren't more recent photos in the details state before it crossed into the straight NGC holder. (Also proving it's not just NGC that misses things).

This changes my possible view and thoughts on the eBay seller's potential involvement now.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/18/2021 4:41 pm
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 Posted 10/18/2021  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
westcoin, I think you deserve recognition for alerting the entire community and the world about these new, as you call them, potential "superfakes" in top tier holders. It may well be one of your legacies to numismatics if this turns out to be the case. I will try to try to do what best benefits this great hobby of ours (for some a life-long profession). If this coin that I now own turns out to be infamous, I think I can live with that. Thanks again to all who make this place great. Like farrider says, this is the free college I always wanted to attend with like-minded friends.
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 Posted 10/18/2021  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NS.

My suggestion, if YOU really like the coin, is to do what you originally intended to do and do a resubmission for a possible upgrade.

Make sure that PCGS is aware of the possible problems regarding the history of the coin (particularly the original NGC history of the coin and the discussion in this thread). Also, if the coin is returned to you in a body bag, or anything other than VF30 (or higher), that you want PCGS to stand behind their guarantee and compensate you the VF30 value of the coin. You are entitled to that at a minimum I would think. Earlier you said that you and the Seller "agreed it was undergraded" and that y'all arrived at a "price fair to both." What you paid above PCGS VF30 is gone. That is a risk you took when you bought the coin.

Whatever you do get everything documented, keep good records and seek legal advice if you are unsure about anything.

Good luck and I hope this journey goes well for you!
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 Posted 10/18/2021  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If this turns out to be the first instance of high tech coin alteration that escaped PCGS, I don't think I would be interested in resubmitting it to them or being compensated at the VF30 level. I would want to keep it intact as it sits today to mark a new era when any damaged coin can be repaired expertly without detection.

If the coin is a fake reproduction, I hope that what burfle23 said is correct and PCGS reimburses me for what I paid. Not sure if that will happen.
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 Posted 10/18/2021  7:24 pm  Show Profile   Check captainrich's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add captainrich to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
apcol258 wrote...
Quote:
or is there a chance that the PCGS coin is a copy struck from the original NGC details coin?


I write...

or is there a chance that the NGC details coin is a copy struck from the PCGS coin?

In other words, could numismatic student's coin have once been used to create a counterfeit die, which would then account for the weak details seen on the NGC details "coin" that was apparently mounted into jewelry?

or am I thinking too hard and out loud here?
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 Posted 10/18/2021  7:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ns, so... what is the risk in submitting this for a regrade? I have my theories, but interested in yours.
Edited by Coinfrog
10/18/2021 7:42 pm
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 Posted 10/18/2021  9:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jimbucks to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is there any reason to send this off to CAC?
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 Posted 10/18/2021  11:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not the same as the OP's 1793, but in a discussion of so-called "super fakes" (I call them recent Deceptive Struck Counterfeits) this is one of the 15 examples of different dates/ denominations I own in genuine top 4 TPG holders. This one originally in a PCGS holder, it was imaged and XRF scanned by a friend at NGC.





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