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1793 1c Chain Cent Ameri. - Sheldon 1

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 10/19/2021  03:06 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
or is there a chance that the NGC details coin is a copy struck from the PCGS coin?

In other words, could numismatic student's coin have once been used to create a counterfeit die, which would then account for the weak details seen on the NGC details "coin" that was apparently mounted into jewelry?

or am I thinking too hard and out loud here?


Not at all, this is possibly one scenario I'm researching, we need to find more than one coin to prove it or hope the Carlyle Luer coin suddenly turns up, still looking the same, sans the NGC holder. Getting the coin edge examined is next, along with more and better photos of the coin in the current PCGS slab. That is happening hopefully, as well as some more searching currently ongoing for more copies. Fingers crossed one way of the other we turn up something more. At this current time there isn't anything more to report (in a public forum), but rest assured we are all over it, and hope to get to the bottom of this mystery as soon as possible.

Fingers crossed we can.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, EAC Member #6202, NBS Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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3254 Posts
 Posted 10/19/2021  11:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is there any reason to send this off to CAC?


Not for a sticker, but JA's opinion on the coin being tooled or copy would be valuable. He was one of the founding members at both NGC and PCGS and he has seen it all, and he is well respected.
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 Posted 10/19/2021  12:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The seller is known to me and I can say I had a run in with him a few years ago; he posted a high (details) grade 1793 Half Cent with poor images and a less than complete description of it in my opinion and I found the original example from a Heritage auction- it had been doctored in an attempt to improve the grade with PCGS but still received a details grade.

I volunteer my time (when I have it!) with direct reporting to that selling venue to remove bad listings and counterfeits and had his listing removed after trying to talk with him about it first. I have watched him since and although he deals in "reprocessed" coins I have never seen him try to sell a counterfeit. I do not know if he is the one who has them repaired and then submits them for recertification...







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 Posted 10/19/2021  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumisEd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now the bombshell question is: how many more "high quality" doctored coins are in problem-free TPG slabs? A few? Dozens? Hundreds? THOUSANDS?


Quote:
It seems PCGS is on the hook for a substantial sum. This is big news in numismatics and warrants exposure in Coin World. Potential repercussions in the industry are large.


Not sure if it works like that. PCGS can claim "it's just an opinion", and "Buy the Coin, Not the Slab".
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 Posted 10/19/2021  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm curious about that last example, @burfle23. How does the "repaired" coin end up with a lower PCGS cert# that the original un-doctored coin? I always thought the PCGS cert numbers were somewhat sequential. They're definitely the same coin; I'm not questioning that.

Also curious what the seller was asking for the altered coin. The original sold for $11,162.50 here https://coins.ha.com/itm/half-cents...bnail-071515. In other words, how much money is in this "profession"? In the OP example, I imagine scoring a straight grade could net you five figures.
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 Posted 10/19/2021  6:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Adam_E to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Not sure if it works like that. PCGS can claim "it's just an opinion", and "Buy the Coin, Not the Slab".


It's unlikely PCGS would want to say this if the evidence is this substantial. It's in PCGS's interests to appear objective in their grading, and not following up on their guarantee in this situation would be a really bad PR look, and likely cost them more than just eating the cost of the coin would.

There's precedence for PCGS buying back doctored coins in straight graded holders before, too, and actually more covered in the guarantee than I expected, check out this link: https://www.PCGS.com/news/PCGS-grad...antee-update


Quote:
1969-S double die Lincoln cent MS65RD $80,000, November, 2003. This coin "turned" color in the holder and now only graded MS64RB.


Edit: Reading further in that link they state that after 2010 they no longer guarantee color designations on copper coins, so that doesn't apply anymore, but they do explicitly state that if they miss doctoring or overgrade the coin they will cover it.
Edited by Adam_E
10/19/2021 6:10 pm
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 Posted 10/19/2021  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Not sure if it works like that. PCGS can claim "it's just an opinion", and "Buy the Coin, Not the Slab".


It does work that way.

If you have irrefutable evidence that a coin has been doctored and PCGS encapsulated it as problem-free it is not just an opinion. If PCGS were to claim otherwise they might as well throw out every guarantee they claim.
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