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Full Or Partial Bare Belly 1990 Nickel?

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 Posted 10/13/2021  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If circulating coin dies are all polished then it could be a simple piece of tape was left in the beaver belly, just not sure like proof coins where dies are polished to near perfection
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 Posted 10/13/2021  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
007 ... How can overpolishing a die have anything to do with the belly? It makes no sense.


Okiecoiner,

There are a couple of low spots on the beaver's belly that are intended to be in the design when a coin is fully struck by the working die. Those low spots on the coin are high spots on the working die and polishing it would bring the center of the working die more level with the rest of the design, if this area was to be overpolished it would create various different types of bare belly beavers.

Edit: When a working die is created, the blank die used is cone-shaped with a point to it. So the working die is naturally higher in the center and would need polishing to some extent.
Searching Canadian Small Cents daily since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 Georgivs VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1951 Georgivs VI 1 Cent DDO Type 2 http://goccf.com/t/363635
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO Type 1 http://goccf.com/t/373627
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO Type 2 http://goccf.com/t/408163
1989 Belize 25 Cent's DDR http://goccf.com/t/362747
Edited by JohnWayne007
10/13/2021 9:30 pm
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 Posted 10/13/2021  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@silverwolf what I was saying was the bully in the die would be higher up compared to the leg etc around it compared to the belly, in this area the belly that is missing(low point on the coin, is a high point in the die, it would be flattened on the die fast then the low points on the die. So if the high points onna die were smoother out it would make the belly look higher on the coin not lower.

If a die is a negative image if a coin then the fields are the highest point in the die or mayb my I have it backwards for terminology. Either way the strike would not be deeper on the coin from a polish.

Basically just a die polishing variety does not make sense.
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 Posted 10/13/2021  9:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@johnwayn007,that is true, the die starts out with a blank cone shape, then formed to level fields and an image, but if the dies was not properly made the coin strike could cause this.

No matter how I see these die polishing should not be what the error is called. If the die hub was not designed properly wouldn't it have a different classification? A die polish error just does not compute, thought everything sais an over polished die. So was the die that was used defective, and then polishing the center of the die was still not enough?

Still confused.
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 Posted 10/13/2021  10:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add john100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These small variations on coins have limited following, could be many things as like I mentioned or the die polisher just slipping with the dremmel tool, Coin News if I remember correctly did a great article on the US mint die polishing for proof coins
Edited by john100
10/13/2021 11:30 pm
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 Posted 10/13/2021  11:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@John100, so this is die to die polishing in your opinion?
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 Posted 10/14/2021  12:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JohnWayne007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
No matter how I see these die polishing should not be what the error is called. If the die hub was not designed properly wouldn't it have a different classification?


All dies get polished, over-polishing is where the issue is.

For the 1990 bare belly, I must admit I do feel like something is missing though, I have found bare belly examples on many different years and none of them have the weird lines like what you see on the 1990 bare belly.

One hypothetical observation I once had about the 1990 bare belly, knowing that the blank die was cone-shaped with a pointed tip, maybe someone dropped a few blank working dies and managed to chip the point off of a couple of them, and when the working punch was hubbed against the blank working dies with the damaged tips and then polished, coins ended up being stuck with the die damage that wasn't polished out completely making different variations of the bare belly.

However, the lines seem way too straight for that to be plausible, would be neat though.
Searching Canadian Small Cents daily since 2018.

Some of my Discoveries.
1941 Georgivs VI 1 Cent DDO http://goccf.com/t/367977
1951 Georgivs VI 1 Cent DDO Type 2 http://goccf.com/t/363635
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO Type 1 http://goccf.com/t/373627
1976 Queen Elizabeth II 1 Cent DDO Type 2 http://goccf.com/t/408163
1989 Belize 25 Cent's DDR http://goccf.com/t/362747
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 Posted 10/14/2021  12:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsnpaper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The belly area is the lowest part of the design, which means that it is the highest part of the die. That makes it more susceptible to die polishing, in my opinion.
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 Posted 10/14/2021  07:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@johnwayn007 interesting thought. I was so tiered last night I could not think right lol,

So if the die is a negative image of the coin then the middle of the belly would be higher up on the die, polishing it alone would make it more level with the rest of the beaver design so polishing alone could not make it more level with the field, in fact it would do the opposite effect the more it got polished(making deeper into the working die) would cause the part of the belly to be raised higher on the design, even if it broke off it would still be higher up on the coin like a die chip. For this spot to be struck closer to the fields the working die would have to have the belly almost as high on the die as the fields(fields being the highest part of the working die) so this still does not make sense to me lol.
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 Posted 10/14/2021  08:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Every article I have ever read attributes it to Die Polishing.
As coinsnpaper stated, it is the high part of the die that would be almost level with the fields.
Aggressive polishing would easily remove this. Think of the 1937 3 legged Buffalo nickel,
it had a whole leg removed due to being over polished.
It is neither an error or a variety, it is a Die Event which is an acceptable part of the minting process.
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 Posted 10/14/2021  08:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've spent a lot of time in machine shops and tool rooms, both doing stuff myself or supervising the work being done, some very exacting, down to mils and micros and my degree is in mechanical engineering. You say that the belly is the highest part of the die and I really don't understand that concept. The highest part of the die is the field or flat part. All elements of the design are recessed from the field, so that it is raised on the coin. I agree that the die is very slightly convex so that it releases from the planchet after striking, but it's not "conical" as you state. Die polishing essentially removes portions of the field, not the recessed design. I still don't see how die polishing can cause the "bare belly" if that's the name for it. I CAN see how die polishing can remove some of the waves/ripples on the voyager dollars, because they are just very shallow recesses directly on the flat field. The beaver pelt is not like that. To me, the loss of design in that area is due to a partially filled die. If a die was polished over the entire beaver design, then portions of the beaver would be more fully struck since the metal has less room to flow during the strike and the recesses are shallower.

This is no big thing to me, as I don't collect errors like this and nothing after WW1. It's just a question I have and see many posts about these type of errors. If I'm a dissenter, then so be it.
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 Posted 10/14/2021  08:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If that part of the belly is the high point in the die then polishing it would cause it to become deeper into the die, the fields would have to be polished down to the point where the fields and the belly we're almost level. To do this without effecting any other parts of the design does not make sense.
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 Posted 10/14/2021  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It seems to me we have this same conversation going on two different Forums

Wrekkdd-
If you do not believe it is due to Die Polishing, then tell us what you think the cause is.
It is possible that the die had a die clash that had to be removed and they had to polish the fields deeper
which would affect the high part of the die.
I just gave one example of missing features due to polishing. There are numerous others such as the
Lincoln Memorial "Floating Roof" that have had the high part of the devices removed without affecting
other parts of the devices
Anxious to hear your theory.
Edited by JimmyD
10/14/2021 09:05 am
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 Posted 10/14/2021  09:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wrekkdd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@jimmyD, I have asked for the topics to be merged.

The whole reason I brought the topic up was because die polishing does not add up to me, for the middle of the belly to be missing due to die polishing the fields would have to be polished down to the point they are level with the high points on a coin and then the high points on the die, for the fields to be polished down to that point without effecting any other part of the designs just does not compute with me. Yes it is the high point on the die but compared with a floating roof it's not nearly as high, also there I so much detail in this area I would imagine the polishing to blur the design around the area a little bit at least. But the rest if the design is really sharp as if it was barely polished at all.

My theory which seems just as unlikely was another coin struck by the die had a piece of the clad layer stripped off and retained on the die in this spot, causing it to be raised more in the die and level with the fields, though this does not really account for the straight vertical lines seen in the missing belly.
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 Posted 10/14/2021  09:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree that they should be merged under the "general" topic of "waht causes the "bare belly" coins and othe similar type errors. I have tried to set up an off-site discussion with Johnwayne007 away from this site. John, if you and Roger want in, then we can set it up.
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