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Requesting Intelligent, Well-Thought-Out Opinions IHC

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 Posted 11/27/2021  03:25 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add StarredAndFeathe to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This is one of the most bizarre coins you are likely to see. On the obverse, the leading edge of the Indian head is reproduced perhaps 6 additional times to the left, toward the edge of the coin. The red arrow I have added points to the top of one of the additional feathers. The first few letters of LIBERTY are also reproduced, so there is a row stretching across that is something like LIBLIBLIBLIBLIBLIBLIBERTY.

The reverse is even more bizarre. I have made a sketch (please forgive the crudity) of a FEW of the many designs. The off-center Lady Liberty, to me, resembles the design (first version) on the 1792 Birch Cent, with the shorter curly hair. The curls here are quite prominent, along the circumference of the head.

The red arrow points at a version of the foot of a Flying Eagle. The foot is quite prominent on the coin, even to the naked eye. The foot seems to be a more refined version of that detail than what can be seen on the regular production cent, pattern cents, Gobrecht dollar, etc. I believe that the eagle was reproduced several times on this and that a lot of what is seen are feathers....the loops and the parallel lines of the feathers from a Flying Eagle version.

I believe that this planchet was used over and over again at the Mint as a die trial planchet....a roughout piece for first test strikes to get a basic first look before a design or partial design was struck on its own planchet that had not been used before. Close study of the obverse seems to indicate the presence of a number of large eagles that are heads only, without accompanying bodies. Eyes, eye sockets, and beaks are fairly prominent.

I think that a large share of the designs on this specimen were proposals for the gold dollar series. Based upon the size of the foot of the Flying Eagle, for example, the entire design in that size would have fit on a gold dollar.

This is the most likely scenario that I can come up with to explain this. It's not likely that a counterfeiter of some kind would produce something smaller in size and more refined...they want to try to copy the known, not the unknown. Maybe this was used by an apprentice-level worker at the Mint?

Obviously, this is not a pristine specimen of one individual pattern. Yet, it seems to me that there is quite a lot to be learned from it. I am not aware of another existing version of the Flying Eagle design in such small size. Nor the Birch style of Lady Liberty....and she can be seen quite prominently on the coin with the naked eye, raised up in relief and not incuse as if the design had been the result of some kind of sandwich squashing of one coin into another.

Again, I would appreciate some DECENT opinions. Elsewhere, in the past, people have attempted to attribute all of the anomalies to weathering. That flies completely in the face of the scientific method. Weathering can not reproduce VERY SPECIFIC designs.

Thanks for reading and taking a serious look.




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 Posted 11/27/2021  04:00 am  Show Profile   Check jacrispies's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the CCF forum!

Well, let's start with one thing: coin collecting is like cloud watching. Human beings naturally tend to create patterns with things that they see, even if they are completely random. So when you go cloud watching with your buddies, Mike sees Asia, Jenny sees a duck, and you see a giraffe.

Same thing with coins. Take a corroded coin, Mike sees a double strike, Jenny sees a mule, and you see a septuple strike on a wrong planchet. In reality, it is just damage and you've been looking at clouds the whole time.

Ok, story time is over. I agree with environmental damage. Your theory is entirely impossible.
Edited by jacrispies
11/27/2021 6:07 pm
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 Posted 11/27/2021  04:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
( I'm no pro, it's just my humble opinion )
Searched 6.5 +/- Million Cents Since 1971
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 Posted 11/27/2021  04:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lcutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As coins corrode the surfaces can erode unevenly. This leaves all kinds of ridges, valleys, holes, etc. You want intelligent thought out responses, well what you suggest is just absolutely impossible. You mention this is your most likely scenario, well the only scenario is environmental damage and some Pareidolia.
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 Posted 11/27/2021  05:18 am  Show Profile   Check NumisRob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add NumisRob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with the above.
When one coin design is overstruck on another, the new design almost completely obliterates the old. Even in Mint State, the remains of the old design only show as faint lines and shadowy lettering in those parts of the field that are blank on the new design.

When a coin gets as worn as the IHC you are showing, any faint evidence of an overstrike (if there was one) would have completely worn off.
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 Posted 11/27/2021  06:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Weathering can not reproduce VERY SPECIFIC designs


I actually disagree with this. The circulation wear and and environmental damage have produced a number of specific patterns on this coin. It is Pareidolia which is causing you to find design elements within these random patterns.

Added: welcome to CCF!
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 Posted 11/27/2021  06:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mrwhatisit to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
with the above responses. And you can also see the shield on the reverse, so that is automatically a 1860 Indian cent or later date.
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 Posted 11/27/2021  06:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ijn1944 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I agree with the above. Good conversation.
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 Posted 11/27/2021  08:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First . To the CCF

Your trying too hard to make something that is not there. We call it Pareidolia. An error can only occur during the actual striking of the coin and what you have could not have happened at that time. Your coin was only struck once and the rest is damage.
This is as DECENT of an opinion that I can give considering there is nothing that constitutes an error.
Edited by JimmyD
11/27/2021 08:10 am
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 Posted 11/27/2021  08:15 am  Show Profile   Check captainrich's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add captainrich to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think if you have something truly unique, it will be difficult finding answers on a forum with pictures or drawings. I would try to take it to a major coin show and allow some specialists to inspect it firsthand.
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 Posted 11/27/2021  08:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with all the upthread, so rather than repeating the opinions above I'll say this; spend some time to learn about the minting process. Learn and understand how dies are created and how planchets as are struck. Read up on minting errors such as overstrikes, struck throughs, doubled dies, etc. ONCE you grow in your understanding on how this coin was minted, you will understand the impossibility of your hypothesis.

It's a fun journey, listen to others that are more knowledgeable, keep an open mind and don't get stuck on only one possibility.

Edited by Ty2020b
11/27/2021 08:33 am
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 Posted 11/27/2021  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I read somewhere that a woman found an image of the Mother Mary on a tortilla shell.
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 Posted 11/27/2021  09:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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I found the pyramids of Giza via Pareidolia on one of your images.
With three more cups of coffee, I bet I could find the sphinx if I looked a little longer. Just sayin.
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Edited by TNG
11/27/2021 2:47 pm
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 Posted 11/27/2021  3:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticsFTW to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Edited by NumismaticsFTW
11/27/2021 3:24 pm
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 Posted 11/27/2021  5:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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Having collected coins for 65 years now, I heartily concur with the aforementioned observations. The subject piece has suffered environmental damage, or in layman's terms, "weathering." It may well have been previously damaged in other ways, prior to the corrosion. The combined numismatic knowledge of responding members has to literally total hundreds of years.

Occasionally, an experienced collector or even a numismatic expert can be wrong. I've seen this happen. However, the subject piece is so "weathered" that, even if it was some minting anomaly, I don't see how anyone can make such a call, Pareidolia aside.

@ Starredandfeath ... I do hope you won't be too discouraged by the member observations and opinions on this coin; this, as there's no one who supports your contention of it being a mint error. Here's hoping you'll post other coins on the CCF ....
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 Posted 11/27/2021  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm really hoping the OP takes the time to respond to these hopefully "intelligent and well thought-out" opinions.
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