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I Purchased This Lot Need To Know If The Fake 8R Is Contemporary

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/01/2021  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

windweaver77

I thought I already commented on this but here it goes again.

The coin is a Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit. It is not a Numismatic Forgery. I own 12 copies of this fairly common variety. Only one is in a higher grade than this particular coin. Of the 12 there are 6 examples with a medallic rotation and 6 with a coin rotation.

The coin is NOT silver at least not the 12 I own. Eleven are German silver (white metal) types and a single example is struck in copper. The eagle design is old and very closely related counterfeits of other dates are known.

The 12 copies I own were purchased after I started using eBay (ca 2000 on). This counterfeit was not at all common in New England. Only one example, the copper strike originated in New England.

The price paid is actually low given the current market. If the seller ever wants to sell the coin I would bid on it.

Also it is not the only D dot coin made either. There are a few of them. There are also D with no superscript and Ds. Fantasy mint marks are always interesting.

The ping test to determine silver content is almost entirely worthless. Other metals can fool an untrained ear. A far better method is a density test. It is easy to do and has a valid scientific basis. Density tests are not fooled by clad coins. A 903 fine silver coin has a density of 10.31 grams per Cubic centimeter.

Many of the counterfeits of Mexican 8 Reales were clad varieties. The earlier types are Sheffield plates while the Second Republic counterfeits are virtually all electroplates. German silver counterfeits are normally common because no one ever bothered to melt them since the component metals were worth almost nothing. Silver however could be reclaimed by refining or by using mercury to remove silver electro-plate.

The 1840 D dot variety is struck from engraved fantasy dies and is edged with different patterns. The edges still need some study. Edge typing is very difficult because of the very limited ability to compare the entire edge on each coin. Too many are worn or damaged to even allow basic comparison. The edge on this example seems to be the same as the high grade example I already own.

I hope that helps. Any questions please ask.

I am working on a final cataloging of the counterfeit Cap and Ray 8 reales that I own or have seen - in anticipation of producing a catalog of varieties. It is a daunting task since I have close to 7,000 Cap and Ray 8 Reales and fewer than 1000 are genuine. In addition I have 5,000 photos of counterfeits I have seen on eBay or other venues. I am still hopeful that I will get access to one other very large collection.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
United States
77 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2021  08:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add windweaver77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@swamperBob thanks again for the response. I posted this before I gound the other post.

I have a few more 8 reales in my possession. They're pretty cool coins. Now I am wondering how many are fake haha
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77 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2021  08:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add windweaver77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply




Here is my tiny collection.
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 Posted 12/04/2021  10:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I have a few more 8 reales in my possession. They're pretty cool coins. Now I am wondering how many are fake


Now is the time to buy samperbob's book so you can figure out what you have and recognize what you are buying as you build your collection.
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 Posted 12/04/2021  10:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
windweaver77 Based on what I can see in the photos - the 8 coins are all genuine except for the 1840 D dot shown above.

The coinage of the first republic (1824-1850) was counterfeited far more frequently than the second republic and the methods of counterfeiting changed. In the first republic many different counterfeiting techniques were employed but after 1860 most counterfeits were electroplated copper alloys made from transfer dies. The earlier counterfeits were most commonly engraved dies not transfer dies.

I hope to cover these statistics in my second book on Cap and Ray counterfeits.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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77 Posts
 Posted 12/04/2021  10:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add windweaver77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks swamper Bob!!!

I am more of a silver guy than a numismatic guy. I got some mint condition cap and ray pesos ( the .9027 stuff not the 80% and 72%) at near melt and even some of these 8 reales.

I got that free one from a lot containing some real and some fake coins. I offered the seller to pay him for the real coins ( the 8 reales and an 18th century Spanish colonial 2R from Mexico city) but the seller said " just keep them and merry Christmas."

They also said " This is why I never deal in foreign coins."

Which does worry me, unfortunately most of me stack of silver is Canadian junk. I. Wondering if anyone will even want it. I mean, I bought a lot of it below ot at melt, and expect to sell near nelt when the time is right, but if we end up in a survival- barter situation, I might be in trouble.
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 Posted 12/10/2021  08:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Arkie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
most of me stack of silver is Canadian junk... if we end up in a survival- barter situation, I might be in trouble.


Solution: $% Canadian (80% silver) is 3 ounces/quarter pound. $10 is 6 ounces/half pound. $20 is 12 ounces/pound. I suspect in a survival-barter situation, a quarter pound of silver would be attractive.
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 Posted 12/11/2021  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add windweaver77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
bCJuPIY01Fs


My video about this situation, with shout out. Fun fun fun
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 Posted 12/14/2021  06:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add windweaver77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Arkie
What about the sterling stuff, and the 50% ?
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 Posted 12/15/2021  12:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
windweaver77 I presume you are asking if common sterling and 50% silver coins were ever counterfeited.

There are a few occasions where very common silver coins were counterfeited to make a profit. One of the most interesting and prolific was during the 1893 world silver glut when silver prices dropped below 30 cents an ounce for the first time in history. At that time, it became profitable to copy most circulating silver coins to make a significant profit as long as the counterfeiter could produce decent dies. A typical dollar coin contained less than 1/4 of the face value in actual silver value. Spanish 5 Peseta silver coins, for example, were targeted in absolutely enormous numbers. The counterfeits are very close to full weight silver because the counterfeiters could double their investments as fast as they could produce the coins. Millions of copies were made and circulated unnoticed for the most part.

In the US, at this time, the targets were common Morgan dollars and Mexican 8 Reales made for export to China. In Peru the Sol was targeted and similar things happened elsewhere. In the 1930's the price of silver dropped a second time reaching levels as low as 1893 and the counterfeiters produced silver counterfeits for a second time. By this point in time fewer countries made large silver coins but those that did experienced a boom in counterfeiting.

Silver counterfeits are often difficult to identify unless the counterfeiter makes a mistake on the dies or in how they make the coins. Improperly applied edges are often the best clues.

There is a second clue that is useful. Because it is very common for a counterfeiter to short the assay a bit to increase his profits further. That is because a quickly run density test (or a coin scale based on weight and size) is unlikely to disclose a 15-20% silver shortage in a 900 fine silver coin. So, these made for circulation silver counterfeits can run slightly low in silver content which makes them detectable by performing a very accurate density test.

There is a third counterfeiting method involving common silver coins that happened in the late 1960s and early 1970s. This is the time period when silver coins were being quickly withdrawn from circulation because intrinsic value rose above face value. There was a market opportunity to add to the bags of collected coins a percentage of base metal copies to inflate the value of the bag. The reason was because the people gathering silver coins at face value rarely looked closely at the coins and NEVER did SG or magnet tests to scan for fakes. I know of this happening in one instance involving Peruvian Sols - the 50% silver type. The counterfeits in this instance are magnetic and come in a wide range of dates including the Scarce dates of 1930, 1931 and 1933. I own several examples of all of these Sols that are worn to VF-EF range and are highly magnetic. I own one example in an NGC holder that is so magnetic that the coin and the entire holder can be picked up with a magnet. As we all should know, any alloy of 50% silver and copper simply is not magnetic. In fact, there is no metal alloy made of 50% silver that can possibly be magnetic. So, testing all 50% silver Sols and 1/2 sols of types that were still circulating in 1965 can be identified as being counterfeits if they are magnetic. These were produced to defraud bullion traders in the late 1960's and 1970's. I classify them as Contemporaneous Circulating Counterfeits, but I would not object to people calling them Numismatic Forgeries instead.



My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon https://www.amazon.com/Counterfeit-.../1500497177/ or from me directly if you want it signed.
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