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Yet Another TPG Discussion.sorry.

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Pillar of the Community
United States
8056 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2022  11:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Over a decade ago I got back into the hobby seriously. I was glad to find CCF and wondered why it is always said here to buy the coin and not the slab. So it was major homework time.

I dug deep into what happened with the grading companies while I was "gone" from coins. I was surprised to find out there is not "correct" grade for a coin b/c there is no science in it. Every grade for one specific can change if the coin is cracked out and re-submitted (even) to the same company.

I have dissected the PCGS guarantee after seeing people here on finding out the guarantee is not what they thought and certainly not what the masses think.

I researched into a specialty area of mine, Kennedy halves, and found they are rookie-level incompetent when it comes to assigning the No FG varieties (using their own pictures, data, and records from the PCGS website). This made me wonder how many other areas are out there where there are major problems like this.

So...no...a PCGS slabs (or any other) only means to me that someone spent money to a company to give an opinion that is changeable - even within that same company.

I have much more respect for some of the people online here than I do for any TPG.

The more a person is willing to look, the more problems they will find (and its not hard).

And since I don't have masses of money tied up into slabs, its pretty easy for me to not care when the facts lower my own personal opinion of the TPGs even further.

And, BTW, so someone does not construe this post as me criticizing my fellow collectors, I plainly state that I firmly believe if a person likes slabs, then by all means enjoy your hobby your own way! :)

How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
Pillar of the Community
United States
1078 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2022  03:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bosox to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, Levaril. As you probably know, finding 1908 specimen cents without the black streaks from the velvet case liner, or without cabinet friction from a century of handling, is very tough. Here is the ICCS 66 Red, PCGS 65RB. Again, the actual coin is much brighter than the Tru-view images. As can be seen, it has a few black streaks, most noticeable on the reverse.


Edited by bosox
01/26/2022 03:07 am
Valued Member
Canada
107 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2022  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Levaril to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes mine has a similar look to the reverse. If you look at the population report on 1908 SP 1 cents in RB the two posted coins are your 65RB and my 63RB. (In my head mine was RD, until I went and looked at it. Lol.) The funny thing is when I look at the 3 coins posted in RD yours is an obvious RD, but the other two look pretty marginal, especially the 63. Every once in a while you see a really odd looking red like that which really stands out, especially since they are so much more extreme in what they typically call red than ICCS is.

I'll have to pull out my collection but I'm pretty sure I have an ICCS 64RD tucked away as well, but one that would likely get QC if it went to PCGS. I'm surprised yours didn't have that happen since they seem to really like calling QC on matte SP pennies that are red. Yours looks pretty close to flawless though. :)
Valued Member
Canada
107 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2022  10:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Levaril to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply



There's the TV on it. :)
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2397 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2022  1:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's a good example of a coin showing the potential difference between the companies.

This coin is in a problem-free ICCS holder as an AU-50.

There are hairlines on the coin and since they are in the same direction, most likely this coin has been strongly wiped.

Now, it's my opinion that PCGS would definitely grade this as 'details' due to the cleaning, but I also believe they would grade it as an 'UNC'

So the questions begs to be asked, would you rather have an ICCS AU-50 or a PCGS Unc details?




Valued Member
Learn More...
United States
405 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2022  2:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sharkman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for posting the True View of the coin. I want to post my personal pet peeve.
I find PCGS True-view pictures to be misleading. I think they exaggerate toning. I think they minimize defects.
I bought an 1845 SLD based on a True View photo showing a dark ring and attractive colors around the ring on both sides.. The coin in hand does not look at all like the True View. The colored toning in the photo is not there. I took it out into the bright sunlight, and tilting the coin just a little bit of the color emerged at one point around the edge.
Compare a True View picture to another picture of the coin, if available, and in my opinion, many will not look the same.
The NGC photos appear more accurate to me.
You will get your best advice here for the best photos you can get to accurately image your coins l
Pillar of the Community
Canada
1310 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2022  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add purelywasted to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@doubleeagle59 - I am not sure if that would make MS or not, it may be the angel of the photo, the high point of the braid around the ear looks like there is some wear on it. Definitely cleaned though. Looking at the PCGS examples in the population report, it is hard to say, as some braids are obscured by toning or lighting, but look somewhat similar, while others clearly show much more detail in the braid.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
796 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2022  5:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@doubleeagle59 - the one annoying thing about ICGS is that, rather than grading coins XYZ details, they drop them a few grades relative to where they ought to be. The virtue of grading something 'details' is that you can give the coin it's full due but still position it for sale below the going rate for that grade.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
2397 Posts
 Posted 01/30/2022  6:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sharkman...I totally agree.

'Tru-view' is the biggest oxymoron I can think of (that's not political).
Pillar of the Community
Canada
796 Posts
 Posted 02/10/2022  06:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Silver101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just re-read all of this - some excellent comments here. I think we all agree that 'buy the coin not the holder' is key. But the conversation is an important one. To my way of thinking, there are two particularly difficult distinctions. First is between coins that are on the edge between EF and AU...is a tiny smidgen of lustre enough to go AU? Second is splitting hairs between various mint states...we know where a baggy thing with no wear belongs and where a flawless masterpiece belongs. ITs that gorgeous, perfect thing with one scratch that's the challenge. My favourite, infuriating comment in this area was a piece of advice that one of the grand old men of the field gave me: "If you're going to buy a VF-30, make sure that it's the best possible VF-30". I love that - a lifetime trying to make these distinctions.
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