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Massachusetts Pine Tree Shilling-Genuine?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 15 / Views: 731Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4477 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  08:09 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

My LCS has this item:




In any case, it appears to have been clipped:
weight: 3.57 grams, diameter 21 millimeters. Not magnetic

If this is genuine, would anyone care to suggest a grade and a retail value in this clipped state?
Valued Member
United States
184 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  09:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jerry Picker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's not clipped. That's a typical planchet.
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United States
23193 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@oriole, this isn't the sort of coin that I'd by in a 2x2. Maybe they would submit to a TPG for you with the understanding that if it comes back genuine then you'd pay the fees and buy the coin? With that said, I hope that you go for it. My Pine Tree Schilling is the cornerstone of my (small) colonial collection.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
-----King Adz
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United States
2394 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  10:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add t360 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would spend some time looking up recent sales and comparing the LCS coin to other examples in books and online auctions before making a decision about authenticity and value. You might even find the exact coin in a previous sale. There are not that many out there.

For comparison, this Pine Tree sold in 2019 for AUD$1800, which is about US$1300.
Pillar of the Community
United States
942 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  11:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoctorBurnzy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks good to me @oriole ..however, I agree with above....ask to have this graded TPG from your LCS before purchase. My friend dug one up this past summer while metal detecting on a farm in RI. I was there. It was amazing.
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4477 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  12:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks, folks:

It is not currently for sale, but maybe down the road. Your advice about grading and authenticity is well taken.

But just to clarify, the small size (compared to the catalogue of 26 mm) and the weight are not concerns?
Bedrock of the Community
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Canada
14636 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  2:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Did a little research and from what I can find, all genuine Pine Trees
weigh between 4.1 and and 4.7g.
Quite a variance for a small coin.
Also noticed on your picture on the lower right side, there are 7 dots showing.
Not sure if this is a variety but all that I have seen only show 4.

Just noticed in glancing through the article posted by Doctor Burnzy that there is a variety with 7 dots so maybe there is a chance it is genuine.
Didn't realize there were so many varieties. Good article
Edited by JimmyD
01/22/2022 3:20 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
942 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoctorBurnzy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
it's tough to tell. I hope this helps

hohttp://numismatics.org/digitallibra...95/nnan65609

Here's one at 3.3 grams...that's why it has to be authenticated...in the event, you didn't dig it up in RI like my friend. http://numismatics.org/digitallibra...95/nnan65609
Edited by DoctorBurnzy
01/22/2022 3:14 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4477 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi, folks:

So my conclusion is that the evidence I have presented indicates it is not clearly a forgery, but still needs a professional evaluation to be positive that it is genuine.

This is evidently a very tricky coin to authenticate. You can well imagine that there are very few in Canada.


Excellent advice, CCF!

Pillar of the Community
United States
863 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  6:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lcutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am sure it is genuine, but it has been clipped. It is a Noe 19 and has all the attributes of that variety. They should weigh around 72 grains, 3.57 grams translates out to 55 grains, definitely too far off for it to be just wear.
Edited by lcutler
01/22/2022 7:03 pm
Pillar of the Community
Canada
4477 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add oriole to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, thanks again.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2125 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  6:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From what I'm seeing even the ones with 7 dots have variations, for example the lower tree branches are forked in the OP example and many of the 7 dot examples aren't. This one appears to be a match.

https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/...bnail-071515



Note the many other small details that match up - the forked end of N, the I and N joined together, the die crack between A and S plus the one top-left of E which is barely visible on the OP coin. Features on the 1652 side line up as well. It does appear to be trimmed, judging by the distance from the letters to the rim comparing the two examples.

No expert here but I'd called it genuine.
Pillar of the Community
United States
863 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2022  6:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lcutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yep, like I said, Noe 19.
Pillar of the Community
United States
8777 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2022  11:28 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thought I'd put this review out here since it's the newest and probably best book on these coins.

http://goccf.com/t/407299

The book is again available for less than I paid, through Heritage (under $100), check under their books and catalogs drop down menus. it has been out of print and prices have been in the $180+ over the past few years. A great book worthy of any serious numismatic library.

https://www.ha.com/c/catalog-orders.zx (should be the first book under "Special Books, hard bound editions and more" menu.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
United States
863 Posts
 Posted 01/29/2022  5:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lcutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll second westcoin's recommendation of the book, absolutely the best book on the subject!
Valued Member
United States
215 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2022  10:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add steviegetz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice! Noe 19. Weakness is typical from the V thru to the M. I have a Noe 19 too! I think it's a high r5 variety closer to an r6
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