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Market Grading Vs Technical Grading ?

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 9 / Views: 450Next Topic  
Pillar of the Community
United States
584 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2022  1:23 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add KauaiHawaiiGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have been reading the big and very good PCGS book on grading and identifying counterfeit coins. Early on it talks about the two types of grading that they ( PCGS) use, market grading and technical grading, and they say it's dependent on the coin. So some coins will take into account market conditions and others will not. So I think it's saying that certain coins will be graded not only on it's technical merits, i'e., luster, marks, wear etc., but also on how much people want it or how many there are or how popular that particular coin is. Somehow that doesn't make much sense to me.

So, OK, I've read it a few times and was hoping that somebody with more knowledge and a better understanding than I, could in plain English rephrase or better explain that concept so that even a moron like me could understand. Thanks in advance .....
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United States
1195 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2022  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Check Collects82's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My understanding of market grading is that for key dates and higher demand coins, what they ultimately put on the label is a little more lenient than what the technical grade ought to be. For example, a key date might get a AG3 rather than a F2. Or even worse IMO is when they leave off Detail designations like a cleaning or rim ding that aren't actually so subtle. I see it often with early US coins, especially early coppers where corrosion, scratches, and dings don't get notes. They are throwing a bone to the submitter and seller because these better labels drive a higher $ than the coin might otherwise really be worth. Their justification is the "borderline" grade or Detail is still "market acceptable" at the higher designation.

I've seen it with all the top TPGs, PCGS, NGC, and ANACS.

"Buy the coin, not the label" will always be the best advice we can give you.
My hoard of '82s is up to 241! 218 BC x 1, 118 BC x 3, 18 BC x 1, 82 x 1, 182 x 1, 282 x 2, 382 x 1, 582 x 2, 682 x 1, 782 x 2, 882 x 1, 982 x 4, 1082 x 1 1182 x 8, 1282 x 2, 1382 x 1, 1482 x 6, 1582 x 13, 1682 x 17, 1782 x 60, 1882 x 68, 1982 x 45
Edited by Collects82
05/22/2022 6:10 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5121 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2022  5:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What collects82 said.

Basically some key date coins are given questionable grades (higher than it merits) because they are genuine and key dates. And common coins maybe getting a much stricter grade. I've seen VG8 IHC (1877) that merits a g4 or g6 at the most. But since it's original and not details the TPG grades it a VG8 due to originality.
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Canada
4260 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2022  7:32 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Part of the snakes nest that the grading companies
have run into .
Ultimately a collector should buy the coin not the holder .
In a given series it should never matter what the date or
Rarity is . For an example alluded to above .
I could care less if an 1877 or 1874 Indian cent is put in front
of me to grade . If it meets the standards for the grade that is what
should go on the holder , not oh it's a rare date be lenient .
I am sure that all of us on here have seen crazy grading
from the so-called big 2 Graders .
Pillar of the Community
United States
3626 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2022  9:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
KauaiHawaiiGuy, I know you are a Morgan collector, and the Morgan's get less market grading than other series. You have seen TPG Morgans that you know have been cleaned, but are straight graded. These often are market graded. Morgan's do get some market grading with cleaned coins, but not a much as the Seated Liberty dollar or Trade dollar.

The TPG's do use the market grading to get more straight graded examples on the market to meet demand. With the Classic Head large cents, if the TPG's only used technical grading, there would be very few coins under XF straight graded on the market. These coins are often seen with scratches, cleaning, pits, corrosion and straight graded. If the1921 Peace dollar was not market graded for strike, almost every example would be down graded due to poor strike.
Edited by Slider23
05/22/2022 9:06 pm
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United States
584 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2022  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add KauaiHawaiiGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To the four of you that have replied and given your valued comments and opinions, thank you. But I am still perplexed as to why? If something is not graded on it's merits alone, then the grade is bogus no matter their justification, and in a small way, doesn't that make the entire grading scale somewhat less reliable as well.

Maybe I'm just too stubborn to understand, but either something is or it isn't.

When Slider said,
Quote:
The TPG's do use the market grading to get more straight graded examples on the market to meet demand.
well I suppose that's true, but so what? If they didn't do that, then all that would mean is that finer examples would be scarcer and command a higher price. Is that a bad thing? It seems to me that by market grading certain coins, the TPG's are actually holding down some values by allowing those coins lighter scrutiny.

I think I understand now, thanks again all for your input, but it still makes little sense.
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United States
1195 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2022  4:28 pm  Show Profile   Check Collects82's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are not incorrect in your frustration. I think it exists because there are Sales & Marketing folk in the meeting along with the graders and Ops folk. Sometimes Sales & Marketing wins out and the other departments just learn to deal with the grey area that is generated. In the long run, it's not a good thing for the art of grading and keeping coins on a level playing field when there is a subset in the same holders graded to a different standard.
My hoard of '82s is up to 241! 218 BC x 1, 118 BC x 3, 18 BC x 1, 82 x 1, 182 x 1, 282 x 2, 382 x 1, 582 x 2, 682 x 1, 782 x 2, 882 x 1, 982 x 4, 1082 x 1 1182 x 8, 1282 x 2, 1382 x 1, 1482 x 6, 1582 x 13, 1682 x 17, 1782 x 60, 1882 x 68, 1982 x 45
Edited by Collects82
05/23/2022 4:28 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
5121 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2022  4:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Remember grading is subjective. What happens with key dates is the grade is more subjective and not as strict. Sadly its a known issue with TPG, hence why we always say to buy the coin and not the grade. Yes its frustrating. I would rather have a TPG tell me a coin is Authentic and I'll take the risk on grade, but I can do that when I see the coin, but I won't do that on eBay.
Edited by hfjacinto
05/23/2022 4:35 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
3626 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2022  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Quote:
The TPG's do use the market grading to get more straight graded examples on the market to meet demand.
well I suppose that's true, but so what? If they didn't do that, then all that would mean is that finer examples would be scarcer and command a higher price. Is that a bad thing? It seems to me that by market grading certain coins, the TPG's are actually holding down some values by allowing those coins lighter scrutiny.


I agree with you in principle as market grading makes it very difficult for the collector to hold the TPG's accountable for their grades. The TPG's are a business and are driven by the bottom line. The market grading must generate more submissions and additional revenue or the TPG's would not market grade. Grade inflation is another problem that is created by the TPG's to create more submissions and additional revenue.
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Russian Federation
775 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2022  06:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slerk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's exactly why I love this form. Where else, if not here, could I find out that there is an unspoken rule to evaluate a coin not only technically, but also on the market.
I wonder if this happens to all coins to a greater or lesser extent , or only really rare and valuable ones ?
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