Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

1820? Lima Jp Half Real - Contemporary Counterfeit?

 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 381Next Topic  
New Member

United States
44 Posts
 Posted 09/11/2022  10:01 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi all,

As a fun project and based on your helpful replies to my post about a contemporary counterfeit 1 real, I decided to start looking to complete a denomination set from the 1/2 real to 4 reales. Picked up this interesting half real last week. Weight is 1.66 g which checks out. I calculated the SG at 9.22 which of course should be 10.3, so seems like it could be counterfeit. However, I did an SG test on one of my other half real coins and got 9.8, so I am not super confident in the accuracy of my SG measuring setup for such a small coin. My question to you is - based on the images, do you think this coin is counterfeit, or just of poor manufacture? The letters look blobby like a cast to me and I think the coin should look better for how close the weight is to the standard of 1.69 g. There is also a depression below the left pillar on the reverse that looks like some kind of artifact from the casting process to me.

I did find an 1820 contemporary counterfeit from Stacks archives, I am adding those pictures in case they aid the discussion.. though the cataloguer there noted it was a struck coin and I think mine may be cast?

Thank you for any info you can provide!




Bedrock of the Community
Australia
20062 Posts
 Posted 09/12/2022  02:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My thoughts:-
Perhaps a well worn jeweler's copy, holed for suspension, or attached to a wrist bracelet, subsequently plugged.

Some jeweler's copies were made in reasonable quality silver.,
S.G. suggests that may be the case here, as well.
Details quite 'mushy', indicating a copy off an original.
Pure silver S.G. 10.5
XRF in this case may reveal 80% to 90% silver. the rest most probably copper, because these two metals alloy easily.

I would retain it in a collection, but it would not be a 'star'. However, I wouldn't be motivated to buy it.
Pillar of the Community
United States
8967 Posts
 Posted 09/12/2022  02:26 am  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't see this one listed in the http://www.forgerynetwork.com/ or in Sedwick's Fake Cobs list https://www.sedwickcoins.com/fake_cobs.htm

both good sites to know if you are collecting these kinds of coins. I can't give any information other than the reference sites above to use in the future. You may want to join the Dark Side- Counterfeits and Fakes at Facebook, it's a private group so if you use Facebook PM me and I can send you an invite, if that is something that sounds like you might want to participate in. One of our CCF members runs it.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member, 2ó variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Pillar of the Community
United States
1422 Posts
 Posted 09/12/2022  03:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I happen to be working on a contemporary counterfeit coin that circulated in colonial America, so I wondered about possible similarities when I saw your pictures.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
5514 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2022  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My guess is authentic, holed and plugged (the last part as suggested by @sel).

The advanced state of wear will make the lettering look thicker, etc.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1555 Posts
 Posted 09/16/2022  11:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What makes it difficult for the beginner collecting Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits (CCC's) is understanding & differentiating the three major types and fending off people that ALL counterfeits are BAD in one's collection. The three types in the Latin American sector are:

1. Modern Replicas
2. Debased silver issues normally with copper (collectible but having less value than #3).
3. Off-metal issues as in brass, bronze, copper, lead/pewter, German silver, mercuric silvering over copper or other base mixed metal alloy and silver plating over copper or other base metal mixed alloy.

Based on your photo and as previously discussed this could be modern or debased with copper (#2 above). The Stacks example appears as mercuric silvering over a copper alloy. Latin American issues as well as English counterfeits from this period (19th Century) are normally over copper host whereas based on my research are over brass (i.e., French Plate silverware also using brass as the base metal).

So my guess since as we need coin in hand to make a definitive conclusion its probably a regal (i.e., real) issue since the weight checks out to a regal issue (you say 1.66 grams) and these lower denominations particularly in the 1/2-1R area are sometimes crude looking even if regal.

I devote a whole chapter in Forgotten Coins of the North American Colonies to the so-called Kleebergs (off-metal 2Rs - #3 above) the most valuable since they are the most studied series of CCC,s in Latin American Numismatics other than the somewhat recent Gurney's GNL Portrait 8Rs. Both involve Carolus III, Carolus IV and Ferdinand VII as the Spanish monarchs that appear on the obverse of these coins.

John Lorenzo
Numismatist
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
09/16/2022 11:10 am
New Member
United States
44 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2022  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add threefifty to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all very much for the input! Sounds like it could be either a poorly made genuine coin or counterfeit (potentially debased) issue. One of these days I'll find a cheaper XRF test and will get some more data... Hard to justify it right now when the test costs more than the coin.

I did have one more question - so this coin at 1.66 g is slightly less than the full weight of 1.69 g listed on Numista, but seems pretty worn. If it is genuine that would indicate it was overweight to start and wore down to a little past the correct weight. Have you all encountered many overweight small denomination issues from the Lima mint? I recall seeing some overweight colonial issues, particularly 8 reales from War of Indepence Royalist mints like Zacatecas. I would have thought the Lima mint had better tolerances than that, though.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
United States
5514 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2022  11:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can find examples of this type with weights up to 1.78 g. (+5% if 1.69 was the mint spec) in grades well below UNC.
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6606017
https://www.acsearch.info/search.html?id=6606018

I think this is evidence that as-struck weights of 1.8 were likely.
Edited by tdziemia
09/22/2022 11:55 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
1422 Posts
 Posted 09/23/2022  03:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Albert to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Keep in mind Numista and KM are not error free having different numbers for sizes and weights now and then.
That is the case tonight looking up data for a coin I'm working on for my collection.
You have to take extra steps sometimes to find out which one is right.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1718 Posts
 Posted 09/23/2022  12:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both of the 1820 pieces shown are casts... The detail is correct/regal and the surfaces are obvious.

Now, Lima mint is probably the most prevalent for true "contemporary counterfeits" colonial bust-type 1/2R contemporary counterfeits (or what could be taken for such). Notably, this certainly extends into the post-colonial Standing Liberty type - LOTS of CC 1/2R (peaking witht the 1855/56 issues).

The fact that these don't show any obvious button shank removals or top mounts is circumstantial evidence that these were in fact intended as counterfeit coinage rather than jewelry/clothing use. Of course, though, simple casts are just not that interesting in this arena...
Pillar of the Community
United States
1718 Posts
 Posted 09/23/2022  12:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
BTW, you would think after a decade of buying low-grade CCs and trying to sell them for 3-5x what he just bought them for that Mr. Mercy would recognize one when he sees one.
  Previous TopicReplies: 10 / Views: 381Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.





Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2022 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.34 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: