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Cheerio Dollar At Great Collections - Non Variety? Sold Without Reverse Images.

 
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Author Previous TopicReplies: 7 / Views: 529Next Topic  
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 Posted 09/12/2022  09:56 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I just looked at Sunday's auction from Great Collections and was baffled that no image was included for the reverse of the coin and it doesn't look like the die gouge on the edge of the bust below the P mint mark is there.

Here's the link to the auction:
https://www.greatcollections.com/Coin/1222966
($8,350.00 / $9,393.75 w/BP)

I found an old thread (2008) here discussing the desirability of finding a non-variety in a Cheerio dollar "combo" package.

"Sacagawea"Cheerios Dollar" Non-pattern Reverse Discovered" http://goccf.com/t/29952

All I can think to ask is "Huh?"
Is there really any interest in nonpattern coins found in the Cheerio dollar cards or did GC just suck some buyers in by not posting reverse images and letting everyone's imagination run willllllld (thinking it must be a pattern reverse). It seems like people bidding in this realm must know what they're bidding on, but then again ...?

Any knowledgeable information others would like to share would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for filling me in, as I like the story behind these pattern coins (thanks Yokozuna for your thread) but not the potential for abuse.


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We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
Edited by Petespockets55
09/12/2022 10:59 am
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 Posted 09/22/2022  1:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Yokozuna to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If it's certified as a "Cheerios Dollar" it is the pattern. PCGS will not certify a regular tailfeather Sacagawea dollar with "Cheerios" on the slab, even if it was in the original package. I was told this by PCGS when I submitted my coin in 2019.

Here's the reverse of the coin. It is a Detailed Tailfeather coin.
https://www.PCGS.com/cert/45429406

AND, just because I still can't believe I was lucky enough to have one, here's a link to the coin I found in 2000.
https://www.PCGS.com/cert/37217371

ANA ID: 3203813 - CONECA ID: N-5637

Clothes Dryers are the Coin's natural enemy. NEVER store your coin collection in a dryer. This has been a Yokozuna Public Service Announcement. dryer coin
Edited by Yokozuna
09/22/2022 1:34 pm
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United States
402 Posts
 Posted 09/22/2022  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
William (Bill) T. Gibbs coined the term "Reverse of 1999" for the Pattern/Cheerios Dollars and the term "Reverse of 2000" for the regular issue dollars. When purchasing a "Cheerios Dollar" still in its original holder, it would prudent to remember that not all "Cheerios Dollars" are the "Reverse of 1999" pattern. A previously known, but unacknowledged, Cheerios Dollar without the "pattern" reverse was given more credibility when a second one was certified by NGC in April 2008. The first piece, in a PCI holder, was known as early as 2005. However, due to the problems that PCI was having, no one took it seriously at the time. Fast forward to April 2008 when a collector, who wishes to remain anonymous, owned not one, but two Cheerios Dollars in their original Cheerios packaging. The owner states, "I got one of the two coins out of a box of Cheerios and bought the other one at a flea market back in 2001-2002 and they have been sitting in my dresser drawer ever since until I found out what they might be worth." Deciding to capitalize on them, he sent both to NGC for authentication and grading. Upon their return he was surprised to find that one was not labeled as a "Pattern" as the other one was. Checking the reverse he found that it did in fact not exhibit the detailed tail feathers as the "pattern" piece did. Concerned if a "non-pattern" Cheerios Dollar was possible or was previously known to exist, the collector contacted them. We in turn contacted accomplished numismatist Tom DeLorey, who was instrumental in the original discovery of the Cheerios "Pattern" Dollar. Being as surprised as we were, Mr. DeLorey contacted NGC to verify the piece. In response NGC said, "The report that you received is entirely factual. NGC did receive a Cheerios dollar in original packaging and the coin was not the pattern reverse. This was confirmed by Rick Montgomery and Dave Camire. Dave Camire, in fact, opened the packaging." These coins received even more credence when PCGS announced on May 16, 2008 that they too had opened an original, untampered Cheerios package that contained a "non-pattern" Cheerios Dollar. PCGS also reported that they only apply "the 'Cheerios' designation to Sacagawea dollars with the Reverse of 1999" and that they are not "obligated to designate any Dollar as a 'Cheerios' Dollar simply because it came out of a sealed Cheerios package". (as Yoko mentioned) Story continues here speculating how this may be with two reverses you can find:

http://www.smalldollars.com/dollar/page20c.html and in the coincommunity thread you linked.

NGC denotes coins that are submitted in the sealed Cheerios package as "Prototype Reverse" only if the coin is found to have the enhanced feather reverse. Otherwise, it will be described simply as "Cheerios Promotion." https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-explor...1-ms/?des=ms And for the ones that don't have the pattern reverse, once they are removed from the Cheerios packaging there is no way to differentiate them from any of the other 2000 P sac dollars so it will be curious to see how many of these turn up since they cant be removed from the package and cant be submitted to PCGS.
Edited by datadragon
09/23/2022 09:09 am
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 Posted 09/23/2022  05:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Petespockets55 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Yokozuna and Datadragon. Great replies.

I was just surprised that GC would conduct an auction without reverse images, especially since the Enhanced reverse was what I thought people were looking for. I was confident that 99% of the collectors that were bidding would be sure for themselves about whether it was the variety ... or not the variety.

But after looking online I saw the same info Datadragon mentions about slabbed Cheerios Dollars without the enhanced design. I started to wonder if there might be as much interest for a slabbed version of the Cheerios Dollar without the enhanced reverse design since they are a rarity in their own right. If someone wanted to own one of each, there isn't much inventory to choose from.

Sincere thanks to both of you for sharing your insight.
Words of encouragement are one of the major food groups.
We need to consume them regularly to thrive and grow.
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 Posted 09/23/2022  09:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add datadragon to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But after looking online I saw the same info Datadragon mentions about slabbed Cheerios Dollars without the enhanced design. I started to wonder if there might be as much interest for a slabbed version of the Cheerios Dollar without the enhanced reverse design since they are a rarity in their own right. If someone wanted to own one of each, there isn't much inventory to choose from.


As yoko and the article mentions, in that case the PCGS would all be the pattern version. Some collectors with their pokemon 'gotta catch em all' mentality may indeed pay a nice sum for one, and when there is increasing demand and supply is low such as because PCGS doesn't even label it, conditions exist for higher values over time. That is if there are a number of collectors who want one but hard to find an example in good condition for each of those collectors since so few are graded as such. You see this all the time with special labels collected (first day of issue, from a show, or a signature etc) and no other differences for the higher prices. However on the other side its just a regular 2000-p sac dollar but in a special sealed packaging that is verified it came from such, so its unknown how much this appeals to collectors compared to a totally different pattern than the 2000p found on other cheerios sac dollars. So demand may not reach the same level as with the pattern version. There was even mention of fraud potential I think I read somewhere since someone could maybe put a regular sac into the cheerios packaging.
Edited by datadragon
09/23/2022 09:28 am
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 Posted 09/23/2022  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Rmatteo6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great information everyone... seems like the Sac dollar is hard to come by.

Thanks
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 Posted 09/24/2022  05:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@rma, please remember the rules that you agreed to when you joined CCF. Thx.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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 Posted 09/28/2022  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hidalgo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was shocked to find out how much my PCGS - certifies MS67 "Cheerios" Dollar has appreciated. I bought mine during May 2019 for $4,500. Today, the same coin is valued at about $8,000 (according to PCGS). I question if anyone would pay such a price for my coin. Time will tell.
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