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Scarce 1796 Draped Bust Cent - Grading Opinions Requested

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Germany
1706 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2022  11:54 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I've bought this 1796 DB about 10 years ago at a time when I was very actively looking for 1796 DB's. This example surprisingly popped up in Ebay here in Ger, and after attribution I quickly bought it for the BIN price.

It is an S-105, low R-5. Diagnostics are a recut 6 in the date and the second A in AMERICA which almost touches the ribbon.

The coin shows a number of ticks and marks on both obverse and reverse, as can be seen. It compensates with surfaces which are smooth and hard, and a very pleasing patina.

I would be very interested in hearing what you think, and how you would EAC grade it.

Thank you.


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United States
9972 Posts
 Posted 10/07/2022  12:03 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
EAC grade? I don't think it makes VG on EAC standards. The reverse looks a bit better than the obverse and it is a nice example for the level of wear. I'd guess EAC G06, limited by the obverse.
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 Posted 10/07/2022  12:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lovely. I'll say G-06.
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 Posted 10/07/2022  12:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice VG-8.
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 Posted 10/07/2022  2:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinEnthusiast to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll say VG-8. Overall, this is a lovely coin. The two small pinholes on the reverse do detract a bit for me, however.
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United States
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 Posted 10/07/2022  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Solid for a G6 and pushing into VG8 territory. I see a few areas from a long ago cleaning or corrosion removal perhaps? Can't be sure but it doesn't seem to affect the coin today.

As to an EAC grade? I would NET grade to a G6/4 IMO a really nice example of a solid relatively problem free 226 year old coin. Chris McCawley has 3 of them right now, one has way more detail in the hair but also a lot of old corrosion, the other two are worse than yours Germanicvs in both wear and surface issues.

A very nice VG7 is my final call. Or around 1575+ Euros in value (sometimes the old Richard Picker way of grading is better I think) He only gave a price not a grade and left the grade up to the buyer, but the value was the important part in trying to come to terms on a grade anyways, isn't that what a grade is really all about at the bottom line - Value? So currently I value your nice very example at a minimum of $1650 USD.

My Two Cents for what it's worth.
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 Posted 10/08/2022  02:08 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all, and thank you westcoin for your detailed answer and valuation. I really appreciate it.

Sheldon 105 is interesting because even though it is only "moderately" rare at R-5-, the majority of the estimated 45-60 examples are in very low grades.

I do remember seeing an example many years ago in an auction catalogue that was at least mint state and that was a beautiful coin!

For the rest, however, only 12 are known in condition better than G4, and only 6 are better than VG8. including one in VF.


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 Posted 10/08/2022  1:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
definitely some strike issues with the left side of LIBERTY weaker than the right side so I'm betting the hair tie and top the head are affecting by that. the bottom half of the reverse seems to be sharper the top half

I dont do EAC. I think it has a shot at VG8 with that reverse full rim detail and sharper than G lettering
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 Posted 10/08/2022  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Germanicvs you are correct in stating this is a rare coin in condition. Walter Husak only had a F12 or PCGS VF coin, from my favorite auction catalog produced - Heritage Husak Collection Long Beach February 15, 2008 (I highlighted a few pertinent areas) His coin sold for $6,325.00 almost a quarter of a century ago.

The Catalog page:


Link to images at Heritage Auction archives:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/large-cent...a/460-2106.s

The Dan Homes Collection S-105 was the second finest also an EAC VF. Much sharper than Walter's coin but also with issues... (Last I saw it the Holmes S-105, was in an NGC Detailed "Burnished holder grading EF"

It sold for $8250.00 in September of 2009.

Catalog page:


Link to the last time I saw the coin, now in a details NGC slab:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/large-cent.../1200-2571.s
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil Wat Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/08/2022 7:34 pm
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 Posted 10/08/2022  7:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismatic student to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The surfaces look much nicer in OP's coin compared to the Husak coin. Hard to swallow that the Husak coin grades straight. Surfaces look impaired and porous.
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 Posted 10/08/2022  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Check westcoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Germanicvs, I got curious and pulled out my Noyes book on 1796 Vol. #2 in his set of 6 books.

Your coin is a bit worse off than CC #6 then there are 3 coins tied for #7 (7, 8, & 9th place) your coin is nicer than all three of the coins tied at #7 so from what I'm seeing that puts your S-105 at condition census #7 best. A lofty height for this variety. I don't see this coin in any of the photos in Noyes' book so it must have not been known to the EAC community.

You say you purchased it around 2000 off eBay in Germany? So not in any census reports I can find in EAC records. Bill Noyes and Del Bland must have never laid eyes on it, or photographed it as it would definitely place in the CC records around #7 (which ironically are all EAC graded at VG7 - exactly where I had it pegged at on grade). Your coin while having a couple larger digs on the reverse does not show the ugly reddish coloration and splotchiness that the other 3 tied at #7th place show.

S-105 #6 is just a hair better than your example and it grades at VG8 (VF25).

I'll get my scanner hooked up and scan the pages relevant later then post them. (It's one of the books in my library I haven't scanned into PDF for myself yet).
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1982, Early American Coppers Member (EAC) #6202, Colonial Coin Collectors Club (C4), Conder Token Collector Club (CTCC), Civil Wat Token Society (CWTS), & Numismatic Bibliomania Society (NBS) Member in good standing, 2 variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
10/08/2022 10:52 pm
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16478 Posts
 Posted 10/08/2022  10:00 pm  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice coin as so many of these as you know, are plagued with problems.

I'm at VG8 all day. Reverse might pull it higher if the obverse was slightly more defined.
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Germany
1706 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2022  09:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dear westcoin, I am very grateful to you for all of the extremely interesting information you have given me. I appreciate it very much and realise and appreciate all the time you must have spent on this.

I was totally unaware of much of what you have discovered, specially concerning the other examples, for example the Husak and the Holmes coins, and the other examples in the Condition Census.
(The main sources of information that I have are my old Breen book, and HA archives).

I am at the moment trying to find the catalogue where I saw that beautiful specimen of S-105 being offered, most likely the 60 or 55 example you mention. It must have been over 20 years ago. (I hope my wife has not thrown the catalogue away....)

I Have found my records of when I bought my coin - it was in April 2008, listed by a French seller. I was so happy to find it.

If you have the time and patience, I would very appreciate seeing the other examples in the Condition Census in EAC Records.

With regards,

Eduard
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 Posted 10/09/2022  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
. Hard to swallow that the Husak coin grades straight. Surfaces look impaired and porous.


as soon as I saw that coin I had the same thought
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382 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2022  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jerry Picker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm curious as to which reverse this coin has.





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382 Posts
 Posted 10/09/2022  2:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jerry Picker to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll answer my own question, Rev. of 1797


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