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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,647 |
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New Member
United States
10 Posts |
Hello everyone, I have an interesting question that I have no answer to so I am seeking some expertise. I went to the bank and got some dollar rolls of coins and they were customer wrapped. No big deal or anything but I opened one up and it had very nice looking 2000 P Sacagawea dollar coins but they had toning from dark amber to almost purple hue to them, possibly from the roll? The real question I had is that will toning lower the grade of a coin if it got sent to PCGS? I attached some images of the coin I am talking about. This is the most dramatic example but there are 8 other coins that are similar. I am interested to hear your opinions about this topic!! Thanks!   Edited by Tinman360 12/20/2022 6:22 pm
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Moderator
 United States
33017 Posts |
Quote: The real question I had is that will toning lower the grade of a coin if it got sent to PCGS? I believe that artificial toning will cause a coin to be either labeled as such or returned in a body bag. Legit toning won't affect the numerical grade, but for some denominations, the color is noted too (i.e. red vs. brown for copper cents).
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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New Member
 United States
10 Posts |
Ahhh okay that makes sense, so would toning from the roll itself be considered artificial correct?
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Moderator
 United States
33017 Posts |
That is a good question, and one that is beyond my understanding. Some folks love toning on coins but I sometimes struggle to see where the line between naturally toned and artificially toned is. Let's see what someone more knowledgeable thinks.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push." -----Ghanaian proverb
"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed." -----King Adz
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19657 Posts |
If the toning is within the specific TPG's boundaries of acceptability, it will grade. THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT. Disclaimer - I don't know this series, especially about how they tone other than to full brown. I was quite surprised by the toning! My only suspicion is heat exposure. I've never put one of these under a torch but now it's on my bucket list. LOL My gut says the toning would be market acceptable. I see some brown closest to the rim and logical color progression. The reverse is nicely toned - too bad about the fingerprints. I'm pretty sure if you put this up for auction you'll get a great price. Otherwise ff you collect these, run it through the polarity ladder to stabilize those prints and put it into an airtite.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
878 Posts |
beautiful-doesn't look artificial to me; the paper of the roll probably affected them. I just got some old Ikes-all toned because the person who owned them stored them in plastic tubes with paper cut-outs in between the coins. I guess the idea was to keep them from striking each other, but instead the acid paper toned them nicely.
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Moderator
 Australia
16295 Posts |
The problem with using words like "artificial" is that in many cases, it is chemically indistinguishable from "natural" toning. Exposing a silver coin to sulfurous gases will make it tone in exactly the same fashion as if it had toned "naturally" just sitting on a shelf for years. The only difference is time. It is perhaps better to refer to "accelerated toning" as the opposite of "natural toning". Some "accelerated toning" is bad, others are acceptable - because of that whole "a difference that makes no difference is no difference" thing. "Bad" accelerated toning gives a coin an unnatural or garish colour. Applying chlorine bleach to a silver coin gives it a weird blue-green colour you don't get from natural silver toning, for example.
The alloy used for "golden" dollars is chemically more reactive in air than traditional coinage alloys. 20 years is more than enough for such a coin to tone "naturally". So I doubt this coin would be condemned on the basis of its toning.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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New Member
 United States
10 Posts |
Okay so one final stupid question. If I were to use the polarity ladder is that acceptable or unacceptable if I were going to submit to PCGS? I wasn't able to find anything online about that.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1646 Posts |
 A normal 2000p should not be graded generally, only the cheerios or wounded eagle or rare mule one in very good condition due to the value after grading. https://www.PCGS.com/prices/detail/...des-61-70/msHeres a good article on Sacagawea toning over time and whether that adds value. https://www.PCGS.com/news/color-of-...deeper-tones It is unknown to what extent collectors may prize rainbow toned coins vs original but typically there will be collectors out there who value it and will pay a premium for quality examples. As far as toning goes, the PCGS graders look for original, natural-looking, attractive toning. A coin that looks unnatural is either going to end up with a lower grade or not graded. A toned coin that is overly dark and unattractive is not going to get a high grade no matter how original it looks. Coins that have been artificially toned will be encapsulated in a PCGS Genuine holder and assigned a PCGS No-Grade code of 91, which indicates questionable color. Genuine Not Gradable will also be indicated on the reverse of the holder. Additionally, coins deemed to be artificially toned and are encapsulated in a PCGS Genuine holder will also be assigned a unique certification number. https://www.PCGS.com/news/originality-and-toningFor NGC, Fewer than 1% of the coins graded by NGC get a Star rating. The star is like a beauty pageant for coins, to decide if they have "exceptional eye appeal." The grade designation is not as important as how the coin looks compared to others in its grade. NGC admits that these evaluations can be subjective, but If any one of the quality-control graders objects to a Star designation, it's over. To be considered for a Star Rating, a coin must first meet certain quality standards. It must have a full vibrant luster and be free of any distracting irregularities, spots or blemishes. Coins submitted for stardom can be either "white" (untoned) or toned. Toned coins face even more hurdles. The toning must be considered attractive, with good contrast if there is more than one tone present. It also must have full luster unimpeded by the toning. And while the toning can be single or multicolored, it can't have any areas that are dark brown approaching black. https://www.ngccoin.com/news/article/806/
Edited by datadragon 12/21/2022 9:30 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19657 Posts |
Quote: Okay so one final stupid question. If I were to use the polarity ladder is that acceptable or unacceptable if I were going to submit to PCGS? I wasn't able to find anything online about that. Completely safe as long as the toning is normal oxidation and not a colorant. The ladder process, at one of the stages, will remove any colorants/adulterants on the surface. Every solvent in the ladder is harmless to any normal coin surface, so no worries with TPG's - they are completely undetectable. Every coin I've ever submitted was at least rinsed with acetone. It's a practice I highly recommend. I've seen a lot of coins develop issues inside holders from residual fingerprints, dust, dirt, whatever on the surface. Nothing sucks worse that a light print that turns into a horrible black atrocity in 10 years! It happens ALL the time. In fact, I know at least two people that proved the TPG put the print on their coin during grading/slabbling.
Edited by BadThad 12/22/2022 12:38 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
I do not know yet any study about this Manganese alloy spectrum. If I look to others coins indifferent of the alloy all has same characteristics: 1. The lover parts of the design will color before the high relief. In the case of this coin is different because the both reliefs color in same time with same color. Is suspicious.
2. Could be the angle of the photo which do not show correct colors, but why the upper rim is not affected and the lower rim is already toned.? 3. I do not recall that the Mint sold rolls in 2000 of this coin. Maybe, not sure. 4. Ladder polarity you can try. Could be OK, but do not forgot that the toned coins in fact developed protective oxide. So the question will be what oxide develop this alloy in order to apply the polarity ladder?
By spectrum and what I can deduct from the photos I will say that this coin is artificially toned.
Edited by silviosi 12/22/2022 02:38 am
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New Member
 United States
10 Posts |
Thanks Thad and everyone who gave their comments about this topic. As for the toning on the back I think the first image was hard to see that the rim is darker on the reverse side. I believe it's more pronounced on the obverse because this coin was at the very end of the roll with the obverse touching the roll the most. Either way I put a couple of other pictures of one of the other coins out of those 9.  
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
Yep, very interesting. So the Manganese alloy develop the toning like the pure silver and the 925 and plus gold. First photos show yellow, red and blue and the second ones (probably early stage of toning) show yellow and red. Very interesting, no green. More studies must be done on this alloy toning.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
19657 Posts |
The second one is beautiful too, congrats, great scores from a bank roll!
Like I said before, if you don't collect these, they should bring a premium in the market. I find it completely MA toning.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
33743 Posts |
Looks like album tone. MS-63.
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Replies: 14 / Views: 1,647 |
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