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 Replies: 54 / Views: 1,121 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3057 Posts |
same edge profile is to be expected in Machine Doubling since the same die formed both edges |
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Valued Member
Canada
206 Posts |
@Dearborn, thank you for 3D image. Can you produce an example with digits "20" ? @nick10, did you read the topic I gave a link to? Here are two examples where edge profiles are not the same although they were created from same die. The top image is a rounded edge observed on letters and numbers used on US pennies and the bottom image is a trapezoid edge observed on letters used on older US nickels.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3057 Posts |
yes, but how visible is such a difference on actual coins?
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Valued Member
Canada
206 Posts |
Quote:
but how visible is such a difference on actual coins? In theory, this difference can always be observed but it depends on the instrument you have (loupe, microscope, etc). From a picture, it depends on how it was taken. MD due to slide doubling is the easiest to visualize. Here is an example (thank you Cooper):  reference: http://lincolncentsonline.com/mecha...oubling.htmlMD due to push doubling is harder to visualize. Here is an example. Look at the left picture where the edge difference indicated by top arrow is easy to see but the one indicated by the bottom arrow is harder to see (thank you Cooper):  reference: http://lincolncentsonline.com/mecha...oubling.html
Edited by numidan
06/09/2023 2:50 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3057 Posts |
numidan, since we've been mostly talking standard overhead photos, initially I thought you meant a profile visible from there. Yes, to see a difference in device edge profiles, we need to view the coin from an angle. I can understand how that difference can be useful for diagnosing doubling on certain coins made with early state dies, however even with a good magnifer, it's difficult to see whether the side of a device is perpendicular to the fields, or is sloped.
Another difficulty is that as a die ages what had been perpendicular gets worn into a slope. Those challenges are why I first look from overhead for flatness of the suspected doubled area. When that is inconclusive, additional analysis such as that you suggest can be helpful.
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
975 Posts |
Are there some additional pictures I can take to help the discussion? The iPad magnifier is a tube, so I can definitely tilt to different angles. I can also rotate the angled LED light around the main lens (or turn it off completely).
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
975 Posts |
Dearborn wrote: Quote:
As long as we are getting extremely nit-picky - we also need to remember that the devices are in a 3D view. when the devices are raised (as opposed to incuse) and looking from a very slight angle, we will see the sides of the device as it transitions from the top of the device down to the fields. While that seems like a valid thing to keep in mind, it might also be worth noting that the second 2 and the D mint mark do not display the same phenomenon. If I were catching the side of the 3D raised letters, then shouldn't that same line appear on all of them? |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
22268 Posts |
This topic is getting fun - let me go back and check on that..
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
22268 Posts |
Quote:
If I were catching the side of the 3D raised letters, then shouldn't that same line appear on all of them? It is possible that the loupe being used it distorting the view of the devices at the viewable edges of the loupe
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
22268 Posts |
Quote:
@Dearborn, thank you for 3D image. Can you produce an example with digits "20" ? Yes I can, give mt a few moments to get home from work and I'll get on my editing software and create one for you.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
22268 Posts |
Ok here it is: I tried to duplicate how the '20' shows on the nickel up above.  Edited by Dearborn
06/09/2023 4:38 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
206 Posts |
@Dearborn, thank you for the 3D image. That is exactly what I was looking for and it does look similar to the nickel presented by Brandmeister.
I did a quick search online for the steps on how to draw 3D letters/numbers and briefly it states:
1) to draw the letter/number (this is the upper design element)
2) determine the direction of the 3D and sketch an outline around the letters/numbers (this is the doubled edge)
3) close the shape
So, this also demonstrates that there is an increase in device size, not a reduction as in MD.
@Brandmeister, if possible,
1) Can you take a picture of the word TRUST and
2) What is your estimate of the die state (early, mid, or late)?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
22268 Posts |
no problem, I'm also glad I found a matching font to go with it..  |
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
975 Posts |
I will take some more detailed pictures of the entire coin face. You guys will have to estimate the die state, that is beyond my knowledge at the present time. Honestly, I have a hard time distinguishing what is happening on these letters vs. Wexler listings like this one: https://www2.briansvarietycoins.com...gs/view/1426But I am still learning. =) |
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Pillar of the Community
Topic StarterUnited States
975 Posts |
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Replies: 54 / Views: 1,121 |
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Posted 06/09/2023 2:11 pm
