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How Bad Is This Counterfeiting Problem?

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Valued Member

United States
88 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  4:11 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add bikergeek to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I took a screen shot of the first twenty topics that appeared on CCF to me today. Of those, ten of them - HALF of the top posts - deal with questions of fake / counterfeit / copy coins.

While I don't want to discount the value of being able to seek the community's opinion as to whether a potential purchase is a fake or not (heck, I've posted such questions myself on some board or another), I wonder if the problem is as vast as this current top-20 list suggests?

I had a screen grab, with the terms highlighted, but as I tried to post that image I saw a warning "no screens!" so I guess that's a no-no (?)

Terms that I highlighted in these ten posts: "real or fake" (3 instances), "counterfeit" (3), "bad fake," "authentic or repo," "real or copy," and "authenticity thoughts please."

I'm a graybeard and I've been collecting for a long time, so this isn't going to dissuade me from doing what I was doing - but I'm imagining a new member seeing this and wondering just what the heck kind of hobby they're getting into here.

I wonder if a separate sub-forum might be in order, to localize these posts for the benefit of those who are learning these important authentication skills - and to avoid generating fear for those who may be newer to the hobby. There are both raw and slabbed coins being asked about, which makes it clear that you can't even assume "buying slabbed coins will give a measure of confidence" and it could feel downright risky.

Submitted with respect.
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paralyse's Avatar
United States
12046 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There used to be a subforum but I believe it was closed back down. I may be mistaken.

The fakes have always been around since antiquity. The main things that have changed in the last 30 years are the ubiquity of the Internet (which makes identifying, sharing, discussing, and documenting fakes much easier) and the availability of cheap labor along with advances in laser CNC milling/tracing and coining machinery overseas (which have allowed the affordable production of die-struck counterfeits of varying quality.) Even as far back as the 70s, some of the faked US gold coinage (Omega) was able to fool even advanced collectors and specialists for years. The ancients market has been flooded with fakes for much longer, although most of them are easily spotted.

It's still a bit scary to me, and I've been collecting for many years; new collectors SHOULD be scared. Just in the last 10 years, the fakes coming across from Asia have gone from crude cast "fantasy" fakes with impossible dates, odd or incorrect designs, blundered legends, etc. to die-struck counterfeits that use transfer dies created from actual coins, struck in precious metal alloys that are at least similar to the original. At first even these fakes had odd mismatches (e.g. an 1878 8TF reverse on an 1893-S Morgan dollar, or designs used only on pattern coins) but the counterfeiters are slowly learning from their mistakes, at least in some cases.

If it encourages new collectors to learn, do research, buy from reputable dealers, and have questionable coins reviewed by professionals, then I think it's a good thing when topics involving fakes are up front and clearly in view. ebay has plenty of fakes to be found, but not nearly as many as Etsy, and the Asian sites are probably the leading source.

Also remember that just because there are a lot of posts about fakes doesn't mean there are a lot more fakes; people are less likely to post topics about coins which are clearly not fake, or highly unlikely to be fake, and more likely to post topics about questionable or suspect coins, or coins which are highly faked.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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jpsned's Avatar
United States
2029 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  5:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jpsned to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
While I don't mind the posts about fakes and counterfeits, it's always nice to read a post that's not about them.
Edited by jpsned
10/24/2023 12:03 pm
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paralyse's Avatar
United States
12046 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  5:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not opposed to a separate discussion forum specifically for counterfeits.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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MisterT's Avatar
United States
1862 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  5:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MisterT to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've been collecting for 57 years and while counterfeits have always existed, I've never seen the problem as bad as it is today. China is the biggest culprit. I understand that the CCP encourages and even subsidizes the manufacture of counterfeit foreign coins from all countries and denominations. Even low grade and or low value coins are counterfeited. It would be wise to consider EVERYTHING as counterfeit until you can prove otherwise. Slabbed and graded coins are no exception. That makes a digital scale, calipers, magnet and other tools essential. Purchasing from reputable dealers and education are key.
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burfle23's Avatar
United States
501 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  6:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add burfle23 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There are different levels of counterfeits currently but the ones that keep me up at night are "coins" made from real examples using advanced manufacturing/ computer aided technology. We have documented over 25 of these in denominations from Massachusetts Half Cents through a Gobrecht pattern dollar, with every one documented having at least 1 example certified genuine by one of the 4 top TPGs. I have quite a photo collage of many of them, shared here.

I research and write articles on ones I have documented, with over 50 having been published in Coin Week alone, but also articles published in the Numismatist, EAC's Penny-Wise, the LSCC's Gobrecht Journal and C4's Newsletter.

I also report bad Bay listings along with others, but always several every day...


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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16344 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  6:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There used to be a subforum but I believe it was closed back down. I may be mistaken.

There is still a subforum dedicated specifically to fakes on ebay; it's access-by-application only, because the ebay counterfeit-sellers kept finding it on Google and demanding we stop maliciously reporting their "coins", threatening legal action.

Quote:
I'm a graybeard and I've been collecting for a long time, so this isn't going to dissuade me from doing what I was doing - but I'm imagining a new member seeing this and wondering just what the heck kind of hobby they're getting into here.


The vast majority of these posts are from new members, who have found an unusual coin on holidays overseas or in a flea market somewhere and bought it on a whim, or inherited it from their grandma or whatever, then wonder maybe it's not genuine. That is one of the reasons why we're here - to answer questions about coins from non-collectors.

For the newbies to the hobby, I think the message that would be appropriate take-home from this is "be alert, not alarmed". For many years, slabs gave people a false sense of security; fortunately people have woken up to the fact that for the Chinese fake-masters, slabs are just as easy to fake as the coins inside them.

"The best counterfeits are the ones that haven't been detected yet", and if you have a reasonably large coin collection, the chances that you have no fakes (that you aren't aware are fake) in that collection are virtually nil. I've got over 14,000 coins in my collection, I know 12 of them are fake and I've got my doubts about another dozen or so, but it's likely there are more that have not aroused my suspicion. If you can't handle the prospect of potentially owning a fake unawares, than consider collecting coins that "aren't worth counterfeiting" to minimize your risk. Minimize, but not eliminate; it's surprising what counterfeiters think they can make a profit from.

Finally, "trust the seller, not the coin". Buy from dealers that have a lifetime guarantee of authenticity, and who will actively track down their loyal customers to offer refunds if it's pointed out some time in the future that a coin they sold was fake.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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thq's Avatar
United States
3262 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2023  11:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've recently developed an interest in well struck Buffalo nickels. But there are lots of well struck Buffalo nickels. Who would be interested in discussing what everyone else has, or can get, for very little money? My buffalo detective story only interests me. The topic would drop out in a day with few or no responses.

Counterfeits are a similar matter, but of interest to all of us. A detective story to work on which requires attention to detail, similar to tracking down well-struck curls on the top of a buffalo's head. Because of our interest, counterfeit posts get pushed to the top of the queue more often than other posts.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
Edited by thq
10/23/2023 11:33 pm
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Brandmeister's Avatar
United States
4701 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2023  2:12 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I legitimately think a thread showcasing well struck Buffalo nickels, and discussing what constitutes a well struck Buffalo nickel, would generate a lot of views. Maybe not a huge number of posts, per se, but there are many passive readers on this site.
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United States
1871 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2023  3:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add livingwater to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those fake coins slabbed are very concerning, fooling the grading companies!
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simplycoins101's Avatar
10 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2023  01:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add simplycoins101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Using a coin microscope and also being familar with the varieties of the coin that your seeking helps to avoid being sold a fake coin. I like to include microscope photos of my coins with errors for this reason. Also if I doubt a coin, ill post it up on a forum and people can point out the fake and then I know for future reference.
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jacrispies's Avatar
United States
3731 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2023  1:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jacrispies to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hey Bikergeek! I hope all is well!

I do not think there is such thing as too many topics about counterfeits. The public needs to be educated, it is too easy to get messed up big time with coins. If they get scared off, then maybe slinging good money is not for them.
Suffering from bust half fever.
Want to learn how to attribute early half dollars by die variety? Click Here: http://goccf.com/t/434955
Shoot me a PM if you are looking to sell bust halves.
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