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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,043 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
502 Posts |
I've seen a number of "coins" posted in this forum where members respond they are "obvious fakes". I am interested if this example looks good or counterfeit to folks interested in responding, and why either way!   Edited by burfle23
01/05/2024 7:32 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
Same reverse as the others in this series of fakes, so it's either fake or it's the source coin. Are you toying with us?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1862 Posts |
On the 7 by 6 star variety which is what you are showing, the bottom star on the right is too close to the bust compared to a genuine example. There are probably a lot of other things wrong with this coin too if I studied it enough but the star position was the first thing I noticed that screams fake. Also as kbbpl stated, the reverse displays the same identical gouges on the banner at UNUM and on the vertical lines of the shield. Same as the 1798 you had posted before.
Edited by MisterT
01/05/2024 10:18 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12046 Posts |
The marks in the horizontal shield lines are odd (tool marks?) as is the lack of definition of the eagle's neck feathers - and as noted, the stars are very odd, almost as though someone were imitating the "stretched" stars of a late die state strike, but way too close to the bust.
However, you (almost?) never see intermediate or late state 1799 Bust dollars without ANY die cracks. I don't think I've ever seen one, personally. That's a big red flag for me.
It's a 1799 7x6 obverse; 1 and 7 are not close, and the last 9 is not higher than the preceding 9; the only die pair even close is BB-163, as far as I can tell, and this coin just looks wrong in many ways.
My vote is that this is not a genuine 1799 Bust dollar.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4398 Posts |
The obverse matches a B16 with obverse #5, and there was only one reverse with obverse #5 that does not match the OP coin. The OP coin has the fake tells on the shield and eagles neck. The OP coin is just another fake. The date position is off slightly, so that add to the OP coin being a fake. Here is a the obverse #5 genuine B16, BB158  OP  Genuine B10, BB163  Edited by Slider23
01/06/2024 10:44 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1257 Posts |
Those with knowledge have provided you with diagnostics. The first question I would have - knowing little about the denomination - is why is the coin raw? 10K coin in that condition if it was real.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
502 Posts |
Thanks for the responses; yes, I know the reverse is the bad one based on the 1799 BB-163 draped bust dollar, and we have seen so many with various dates. And I wrote a Coin Week article on these, but that has limited reach. The obverse actually matches identically to the BB-163 obverse EXCEPT the last star, so it doesn't quite attribute. I note that there may be a genuine source example out there that was somehow been modified/ repaired in that area, requiring more research. My 1st thought was fake when I saw it, and the splotchy toning looks like the CN attempt at artificial toning. I also has just reported a similar one, although not quite as "pretty" listed on the Bay. The dealer who bought it over the counter stated when he posted it the weight was correct and tested as silver. When I asked for edge images, here is what I received (middle image):  |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
94367 Posts |
Can't contribute, but always enjoy discussions like this.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4398 Posts |
Quote:
The obverse actually matches identically to the BB-163 obverse EXCEPT the last star, so it doesn't quite attribute. I note that there may be a genuine source example out there that was somehow been modified/ repaired in that area, requiring more research. The OP coin did not come off the same dies of a BB-163 as the star formation and star position do not match a BB-163. The denticles position below the 1 in the date do not match the BB-163. There is no date position and stars position on any known 1799 variety that match the OP coin. The edge marking do not match a genuine example. The coin is a fake or new variety. Given the known fake tells on the reverse, the coin is a fake.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
33743 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4233 Posts |
It would fool me if I didn't know about the reverse tells, but I would never buy one of these without thorough research. I went blind comparing all the common marks with the 1798 recently posted here. Every time I look at it I find more.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4398 Posts |
Here is something interesting look at the star next to the bust a close match in position and formation on both the OP 1799 and 1798. The star position and formation are much closer on the 1798 than the genuine 1799 BB-163. The date position is close. Did the counterfeiter use the 1798 for the obverse die and change the last digit? OP  Genuine 1798 B-12  Edited by Slider23
01/06/2024 1:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
502 Posts |
And there it is, the "obvious fake" comment!
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12046 Posts |
It would fool a great many more casual collectors at a glance if they are not willing to research die varieties.
I don't think it's an "obvious fake" (without the edge shot) unless you're already familiar with the series and the common die marriages, or the arcana associated with the series (die cracks, common areas of die weakness, etc.) If I hadn't had time to research this coin I would have not been able to tell at a glance, and sometimes a glance is all you're afforded.
Of course, if you know what to look for (the commonalities shared between all coins with the "fake" reverse) then it probably is somewhat obvious!
This is not a coin that would be within my price range to purchase at any point (for that money, I'm finally putting a 1793 Chain cent in my cabinet) but it reinforces the need to have a thorough understanding of what to look for before pulling the trigger or letting emotion overrule logic.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
01/06/2024 7:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
502 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2185 Posts |
This would probably fool someone who doesn't really know about the die varieties on these coins. Which is why I would stick to one that has been slabbed and confirmed authentic.
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,043 |
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Posted 01/05/2024 8:27 pm
