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1821 Brazil Is It A Legit Coin Or Fake?

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viper's Avatar
Canada
637 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2025  08:07 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add viper to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Is this coin from Brazil legit or is it some sort of fake?
It is quite off center and is there a value to it?

Thanks to anyone that will reply


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Hondo Boguss's Avatar
United States
17489 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2025  10:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks legit at first glance. What is the weight?
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces20873.html
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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viper's Avatar
Canada
637 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2025  10:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add viper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hondo Boguss thanks for your reply! the weight is 4.4 g and is quite tin.
Edited by viper
03/20/2025 10:27 am
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Hondo Boguss's Avatar
United States
17489 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2025  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
viper, at first I thought that your coin is underweight. But your mention of "thin" jogged my memory and I remembered that I have this Brazil 20 Reis 1813. It's an earlier issue that yours but not by much. When it arrived my first impression (besides the cleaning) was how thin it is. But the weight is 9.68 g, while the Numista listing states 7.17 g. Is Numista wrong? Perhaps. Is my coin an overweight fake? Perhaps. Was there great variability in Brazil's coin weights back then? Perhaps. We need an expert to weigh in on our coins!
https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces23432.html

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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16242 Posts
 Posted 03/20/2025  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, there was a lot of variability for both weight and design in early 1800s Brazilian copper coins, both within a mint and certainly between different mints, as each mint seems to have been using its own weight standard, depending on how expensive copper was to acquire in that province.

There were also an awful lot of counterfeits. The quality of the counterfeits range from "awful" to "even better than the official government coins". When combined with the aforementioned variability in official coinage standards and unreliability of surviving records, it means that it's essentially impossible to tell if any one given coin is an official issue or a contemporary counterfeit.

This has in turn led to a general consensus among collectors of this period that it doesn't really matter whether it's counterfeit or not, just collect everything equally. This series is one of the few within numismatics where you can legitimately say "Counterfeit? Who cares?".

The proliferation of counterfeits eventually led the government to do a mass counterstamping of copper coinage. Everything in circulation was counterstamped, both fakes and genuine coins, and coins were assigned new values based on how close the weight of the coin was to the new weight standards.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Hondo Boguss's Avatar
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 Posted 03/20/2025  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hondo Boguss to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you, Sap, for weighing in with your expertise. I feel better about my coin now, although as you stated it doesn't matter that much to me whether this one is genuine or fake (as long as a genuine fake, not a recent one).
Inordinately fascinated by bits of metal with strange markings and figures
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viper's Avatar
Canada
637 Posts
 Posted 03/21/2025  06:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add viper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Hondo Boguss and Sap for your expertise! It was very informative!
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