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1828 Manila Counterstamp 8 Reales

 
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Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2010  6:13 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Another coin from my collection which I would like to share to you is this 1828 Manila Counterstamp. It's not so nice looking coin but has so many historical background evolved into it knowing most of these counterstamped coins were originally from 8 reales South American silver coins that became a main legal tender here in the Philippines.


Would you like to guess, where is the obverse and the reverse of this coin from these 2 pictures?
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United States
22573 Posts
 Posted 04/26/2010  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Check echizento's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add echizento to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very nice. These coins must be very difficult to locate. I have family in Angeles City I'm going to have to have them start looking for these rare varities.
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United States
1645 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2010  01:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beautiful Manila counterstamp. The host coin is a Peruvian 8 reales, Lima mint. Obverse is the side with legend "Repub Peruana M . 8R. J.M " and the reverse with legend "Firme Y Feliz Por La Union"
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 04/27/2010  08:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Very nice. These coins must be very difficult to locate. I have family in Angeles City I'm going to have to have them start looking for these rare varities.

Thanks echizento, nice to know you have a family here, knowing from Angeles City, they are also my kapwa-Kapampangan. It's really a good idea that they look for these kind of rarities.

Quote:
Beautiful Manila counterstamp. The host coin is a Peruvian 8 reales, Lima mint. Obverse is the side with legend "Repub Peruana M . 8R. J.M " and the reverse with legend "Firme Y Feliz Por La Union"

Thanks to you too Jfransch... seems you are well versed with this 1828 Manila CS 8 reales because a lot of books don't coincide, even majority of us here at first know that the obverse is on the side of Manila. But lately when I read recently a book about Philippine Counterstamped Coins, it proved me wrong... You are right, the Manila side is actually the Reverse side of the coin and the Obverse is the one with the crown having the Monarch's seal and bearing the marks "Habilitado por El Rey n.s.d Fern VII" (all in capital letters)around it. This was based on an English transcription by the author from the Spanish Decree made during that time.
New Member
United Kingdom
41 Posts
 Posted 09/01/2010  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add chops to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
another beautiful c/s! Valued at $1500 - $2000!
Pillar of the Community
United States
4868 Posts
 Posted 09/02/2010  12:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Tht is a great one! I have never been able to buy one with that C/S but have handled a few and they are usually very weak. I think the lack of a high pressure stamping mill forced the adoption of the much smaller F7 punch. It makes me wonder if the authorities knew about anealing the struck 8Rs before trying to restrike them?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2010  07:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It makes me wonder if the authorities knew about anealing the struck 8Rs before trying to restrike them?

Swamperbob: they knew it, unlike the Manila 1830, the 1828 Manila Counterstamped coins had 4 steps process
1. Annealing -process of softening the coins by heating them inside a furnace/oven in order to alter ductility or malleability of the silver.
2. Hammering and Flattening -from the furnace, each coin was hammered down against an anvilto flatten it in order to remove the legend. tthis process made the coin's diameter bigger but with thinner thickness.
3. Die Stamping- is the imprinting of each coin at a time, was fed manually into the pile (lower die with royal coat of arms) and the trussel (upper die with Manila 1828), after which the screw press handles were turned by workers to impress the design.
4. Pickling and washing - after re-stamping, coins were put in a mild acid to clean and washed with water.
(source:Philippine Counterstamped Coins by Dr.Q.Oropilla y Fortich)
The Manila Counterstamped 2 coins below were recently acquired just last Sunday outside auction held at QC sports hall. Please take notice of the complete Manila 1828 incriptions of these two coins that I am very happy to share to you guys ...

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United States
4868 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2010  10:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pandesalapi Very interesting information I will file those facts away for reference.

I am particularly interested in the


Quote:
Pickling and washing - after re-stamping, coins were put in a mild acid to clean and washed with water.


Up to this point, I have always believed that the planchets were pickled BEFORE striking. That is the "normal" method used in coining, at least based on what I have read to date.

This reversal of the normal process would potentially cause the loss of mint luster on the finished product. All of the coins made this way would be "cleaned" after the strike and would not be gradable under PCGS standards.

I wonder if this reversal ever took place in other mints? I wonder if those details were ever recorded? It gives me a new subject to consider and another parameter to keep in mind when reviewing early coinage.

Thankyou for posting that quote.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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1645 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2010  11:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow! 2 more beautiful Manilla counterstamps. Like Swamperbob, I have yet to acquire one for my oen collection, probably because I have been unrealistic about the condition of the host coin I was seeking. Now with this new knowledge from you on the counterstamp process, I need to start looking for a sharp "Manilla" instead of a sharp host coin.
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2010  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This reversal of the normal process would potentially cause the loss of mint luster on the finished product. All of the coins made this way would be "cleaned" after the strike and would not be gradable under PCGS standards

That's also my concern Swamperbob, I have actually seen and held a PCGS slabbed 1828 Manila Counterstamp from a British Friend who happens to own the much controversial piece. It was graded XF-40 and not declared as cleaned. There were divided opinions by a lot of numismatist here regarding that coin. Does PCGS has a double standard in terms of Philippine counterstamped coins? or do they only grade the host coins and not the counterstamps (may it be a fake CS or not)? Whatever the true reason, that Manila CS coin in my own opinion is the nicest I have ever seen

Quote:
I need to start looking for a sharp "Manilla" instead of a sharp host coin.

Jfransch : You are right, look for a sharp and complete Manila to include the year date and the two dots (one at the center below letter "N" and after the number 8) and also to familiarize the difference of the two letter "A" horizontal lines - they are of the utmost importance in determining authenticity on the reverse side of the 1828 Manila counterstamped coin. Happy hunting...
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United States
4868 Posts
 Posted 09/03/2010  11:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unfortunately nothing about PCGS would actually surprise me any more.

I do suspect they have SEVERAL different standards. I know they have a "favorite dealer" standard where they look the other way at a LOT. They also have an "Average Joe" standard that usually involves a body bag for your prized coin while they keep your fee. And then there is the Standard used when dealing with "conserved" but not cleaned coins salvaged from the wreck of the SS America.

As poor ignorant Joe collector off the street how do I know?

They simply say TRUST US. WE KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING.

If anyone seriously believes that I have a bridge for sale.

Grading as we all know is a subjective process - but acid pickling should be obvious. So something smells a bit fishy here. You say:

Quote:
do they only grade the host coins and not the counterstamps

Well, even if they are grading the HOST - both the host AND the counterstamp were CLEANED in the pickling process and to boot the process of making this coin involved HAMMERING the host. Hammering a coin damages it far worse than a CHOP, but they reject chopped, scratched or any other damaged coin they choose (and keep the fee).

So why are they grading a flattened THEN CLEANED coin?

That violates at least TWO of their Primary Grading issues. They rejected a great EF 1801 US cent for me because of a corrosion spot visible only with a 10X loupe AND KEPT THE FEE.

They must have an exception for the Manila counterstamp issues or for the dealer who submitted it. That is the simplest solution and only one that makes sense.

But they do not publicise it. I bet if you were able to ask and get a "legitimate" answer they would say something like -

Quote:
If we disclosed the standards used in this situation we would CONFUSE the average collector.

I say that because in several disputes I have had with TPG personnel that is their catch all fall back quote. All of the TPGs use it.

I guess we collectors are not bright enough to be let in on the secrets of the game - or is it all a dodge to cover themselves when they honestly do not have a clue - so that they can keep the fees?

I guess by now you all know I have a real problem when a TPG keeps the fee for a no brainer reason.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
Philippines
386 Posts
 Posted 09/04/2010  08:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Pandesalapi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I guess by now you all know I have a real problem when a TPG keeps the fee for a no brainer reason

We all have this problem with TPG's. "Not all fast runners win the races...etc..."
A lot of new questions now arises in my mind
How come the government of any particular country does not have any representation? Say a Public coin grading service to be done by any National Archives government entity? afterall the important numismatic items of any country is by all means also its own National Heritage.
Or in other words, having double or triple standards of TPG companies are just normal rotten procedural rules. "Money talks" would be at the very least best describe said standards...

Quote:
They rejected a great EF 1801 US cent for me because of a corrosion spot visible only with a 10X loupe AND KEPT THE FEE.

The sad part though is the fact that they control their business and sacrificing ethics...
Well I guess I have said too much, let's just enjoy every moment owning our borrowed numismatic items and continue to share any insights that others may use in the future
Pillar of the Community
United States
4868 Posts
 Posted 09/04/2010  09:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
let's just enjoy every moment owning our borrowed numismatic items

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
1040 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  03:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add latman100 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob, I love reading your posts, very informative.

Now, tell me more about this bridge you have for sale....
New Member
Philippines
16 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bagets to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Those are beautiful 1828 Manila Counterstamp 8 reales...
I have seen your threads Pandesalapi and I wonder the value of your collection of rare coins? Just curious
One thing I would like to ask is the design of Spanish coins particularly on the crown. We all know the lions and castles at the shield, the fleur-de-lis at the center. But I am interested to know the little figure at the bottom of the shield, Do you know what is it in the middle at pointed bottom of the shield?
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United States
1645 Posts
 Posted 09/05/2010  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jfransch to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a pomegranate
"Suppose you were an idiot, and suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself."
-Mark Twain
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