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Valued Member
Taiwan
219 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  12:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Everest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What was the assigned grade by NGC ?
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Canada
959 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  01:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alan to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The surfaces and luster is something else, I agree&excellent pictures, looks like the luster would really shift and move in the light in hand.

I often wondered if the blank looked like this before the coin were struck, like some toned silver coins (viewed by some as superior) the tone it's struck into the coin? For example early South Africa copper has this darkened effect because the blanks were all darkened intentionally.
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United States
23065 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
What was the assigned grade by NGC ?


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Canada
3050 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  09:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DEVLEC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for that detailed explanation..but it might be beyond most of the collectors viewing these 2 sets.(me included)

The first larger pics show a muticoloured dazzle in the fields that does not show up in the more traditional looking bottom (smaller) pics.

Would you help explain the difference and how our eyes would expect to see this cent "if" we were just using natural bright light and a good loop?
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Canada
1893 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  09:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add doubleeagle59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The US grading companies need luster to asign the ms65 and higher grades.

I once sent in a few Morgan dollars, that were similar to your large cent.

They were toned, had zero luster, but technically, were just about flawless and to me looked like an ms66.

Needless to say, but they both came back ms64.
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United States
23065 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  10:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Would you help explain the difference and how our eyes would expect to see this cent "if" we were just using natural bright light and a good loop?


TL;DR at the bottom.

You will see something much closer to the second set of images. The light I used for them is the same one I inspect coins under, in-hand.

I can't say that I'm versed in the scientific theory behind the difference, but here's my thinking:

"Color temperature" is the range of light colors we can see, based on the heat of stars (which is why they call it "temperature") and expressed in Degrees Kelvin, just like star colors. "Cooler" stars are reddish, "hotter" stars range through white into bluish visible color. We can see from about 800 Kelvin (the light cast by a glowing ember, for instance) through about 12,000 Kelvin (the hottest of "blue" stars, and sunlight under certain filtered conditions like in the shade or through a skylight). You and I are used to what is called "warm" colors (a poor name since the word is the opposite of the Kelvin temperature hinted at) offered by typical incandescent lighting and older fluorescent lighting. These are in the 2800-3200 Kelvin range. More modern fluorescents and "Daylight" light bulbs use what's called "cooler" colors (again, the opposite meaning to Kelvin) in the 4500-5500 Kelvin range.

It's why a piece of paper you're reading under incandescent light has a "yellowish" cast to it, while the same sheet of paper read out under the Noon sun looks more "correctly" white. Our eyes see color most "correctly" at color temperatures of around 500-5500 Kelvin. Below that, stuff looks "yellowish" and above that, it looks "bluish."

The Jansjo LED's are narrow-spectrum. They output only a very narrow band of color temperature in the range of temperatures we can actually see. Incandescents are not so limited; they output light across most of the Kelvin range at once although it's heavily concentrated in one specific area of that range.

My first pics are lit with narrow-spectrum LED's. The surfaces of the coin are not nearly as flat as they look, at a more microscopic level, and differing spots reflect that narrow spectrum at different colors die to minute differences in angle and composition. The result is a "speckled" look which doesn't seem "right" compared to what we're used to seeing.

The GE Reveal bulb used for the second images is advertised as a "full-spectrum" bulb, even though it's still stronger in one narrow band of color temperature. It's much less "narrow" than a typical incandescent, but short of the right to be called a true "full-spectrum" bulb like a plant grow light.

Under this light, the individual spots on the coin each receive a broad spectrum of light color, and therefore reflect more closely to all of their fellows. This results in a much more "homogeneous" look to surface color, something we perceive as more "appropriate" since it's how we've learned to see coins under the light we're used to.

Wow, that turned out longer than I'd hoped, and as a result probably didn't help much.

TL;DR takeaways:

1) Narrow-spectrum bulbs lead to a "speckled" look, because surfaces aren't even on a more microscopic level and they only have one color of light to reflect.

2) Broad spectrum bulbs lend a look more like we're used to, because that's what we usually look at coins with, and they're reflecting all colors of light at once.

3) If you look at your coins in-hand under a narrow-spectrum bulb, you'll see the same thing the camera does.

4) Looking at the same coin, you probably won't see what I do, because you're using a different light. Same goes for your camera, because you're probably using different lighting for it, too.

5) The difference between narrow-spectrum and full-spectrum lighting matters until you learn to make conscious allowances for how the light is "deceiving" you.
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United States
46345 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  10:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Almost looks like a different coin, doesn't it?
Pretty amazing, the difference.
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United States
23065 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  10:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The US grading companies need luster to asign the ms65 and higher grades.

I once sent in a few Morgan dollars, that were similar to your large cent.

They were toned, had zero luster, but technically, were just about flawless and to me looked like an ms66.

Needless to say, but they both came back ms64


It's not so much that I'm bothered by this coin only seeing MS64, as I'm bothered by higher-graded coins which comparatively look like they've been in a fight with a bobcat, so-graded only because they present more luster and are therefore perceived as "prettier."

Of those two, which is physically and visually closer to what it looked like at the moment it was struck?
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Canada
7214 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  5:02 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
these come Well Struck and spectacular often enough that a MS65 Red or Red Brown is usually available in the marketplace .


Except Jack - those coins usually are not uniform in colour and frankly, most are graded by ICCS as MS-65 Red would not pass for the same grade by PCGS.
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
7214 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My opinion:

I have some limited experience with lustrous brown large cents from PCGS (mostly NFLD coins). The uniformity of the patina (which lends to the eye appeal) and the condition of this coin certainly caught my eye.

Eye-appeal is a factor, as well as the strike. The eye-appeal is awesome, in my opinion. The strike is a bit soft, as mentioned by others, and while PCGS is not wowed by perfect fields, the devices are not perfect. The arcuate scratch in King's neck, from collar to hairline, might come into play.

I would expect this coin to grade MS-65+ by PCGS. If it does not Dave, I'll pay for the walk-through resubmission myself...

I would really, really like to hear Bosox's comments on this coin...

Lastly - nice pick Dave! George V large cents that are lustrous brown are ridiculously cheap relative to the mintage numbers of the coin... some of my favourite coins in my own NFLD collection are gorgeous lustrous brown...
"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Canada
7214 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Check SPP-Ottawa's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SPP-Ottawa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I don't think that this '17 will even make 63, most probably lower. It's still a very nice coin .. I'm not being snippy .. only honest.


Ahhh Bill... I chuckled out loud at your comment, because although you have handled tens of thousands of large cents in your fingers, you can probably count the mint state grades on those two hands... when we show you these higher grade mint state coins at the pub, the first thing you say is,


Quote:
"Oh, that is too bright and shiny for me!!"


"Research is what I am doing, when I don't know what I am doing" --Wernher von Braun

Content of this post is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 3.0 Unported License. See: http://creativecommons.org/licenses...0/deed.en_US

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3050 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DEVLEC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

My first pics are lit with narrow-spectrum LED's. The surfaces of the coin are not nearly as flat as they look, at a more microscopic level, and differing spots reflect that narrow spectrum at different colors die to minute differences in angle and composition. The result is a "speckled" look which doesn't seem "right" compared to what we're used to seeing.

The GE Reveal bulb used for the second images is advertised as a "full-spectrum" bulb, even though it's still stronger in one narrow band of color temperature. It's much less "narrow" than a typical incandescent, but short of the right to be called a true "full-spectrum" bulb like a plant grow light.

Under this light, the individual spots on the coin each receive a broad spectrum of light color, and therefore reflect more closely to all of their fellows. This results in a much more "homogeneous" look to surface color, something we perceive as more "appropriate" since it's how we've learned to see coins under the light we're used to.

Wow, that turned out longer than I'd hoped, and as a result probably didn't help much.



SsuperDdave...

No way , that explanation was great and I do better understand where these photos are now coming from..

Thanks for all of these important details..again..

You took a lot of time for my "sometimes silly" question..

..but I do appreciate your detailed answer..
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United States
23065 Posts
 Posted 09/14/2017  6:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You took a lot of time for my "sometimes silly" question..

..but I do appreciate your detailed answer..


....and you hit upon the thing which I will preach about at the slightest provocation - coin photography.
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United States
1398 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2017  08:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SPP ... I totally confirm your opinion that I'm not really into MS large cents... bright and shinies aren't my bag. As with any antique that I collect, I prefer items showing them having been used. It's the history behind things, not the scarcity for me. My eye is always drawn to the high spots of the coin to look for wear. You high-end collectors look at the field .. I look at the design. The coin in question has nearly flawless fields, but my eyes were drawn to weakly struck high points.
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Canada
453 Posts
 Posted 09/15/2017  10:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Strach-Man to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
WOW!!
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