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miker
New Member
USA
41 Posts |
 Posted 06/19/2005 9:31 pm
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I was just watching Home Shopping Network on TV and they had some coins from the 2005 UNC sets that were graded SP (Satin Proof) 69. They say that it follows the Sheldon grading system but was made to 'adjust' for the new coins. My questions is that, since the planchets aren't polished and the dies, with the exception of being bead blasted, are not different and are not rotated out like proof dies are, how could these be considered proof coins? These were graded by PCG. Can the grading companies come up with a new system? Or is this just for the money?
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crystalk64
Pillar Of The Community
USA
3147 Posts |
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The_Cave_Troll
Valued Member
USA
218 Posts |
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Susanlynn9
Forum Mom
USA
5533 Posts |
Posted 06/19/2005 11:20 pm
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The problem that I have with this is that "proof" is a type of strike with special dies. As a result, I find it completely unacceptable to use the word "proof" in the grade designation assigned to a business strike - regardless of the difference in finish.
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Mike
Forum Uncle
USA
2883 Posts |
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Metalman
Moderator
USA
6533 Posts |
Posted 06/20/2005 01:36 am
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I see stuff like this ,,just cracks me up!! everyone running trying to make something out of a big A$$ mistake made by the mint.
You know that this is all because they couldnt get the Nickels to strike up good dont you ? the grading companies have applied the pressure Im sure that they arent making any money off the great buff nickel debauchery of 05!
Now they want to make the same mistake on the gold coins by putting a buffalo on them.
Rick
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OldDan
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1203 Posts |
Posted 06/20/2005 9:15 pm
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quote:
Originally posted by miker
I was just watching Home Shopping Network on TV and they had some coins from the 2005 UNC sets that were graded SP (Satin Proof) 69. They say that it follows the Sheldon grading system but was made to 'adjust' for the new coins.
First of all they arent 'proof' coins. Here is a good definition of the term proof;
Proof
A coin usually struck from a specially prepared coin die on a specially prepared planchet. Proofs are usually given more than one blow from the dies and are usually struck with presses operating at slower speeds and higher striking pressure. Because of this extra care, Proofs usually exhibit much sharper detail than regular, or business, strikes. PCGS recognizes Proofs (PR) as those struck in 1817 and later. Those coins struck prior to 1817 are recognized as Specimen strikes (SP).
as you can see the designation of SP has already been used and could not be for their intended purposes. It's a matter of someone without any idea of what has happened in the past trying to make a pich for something they think is special...and messsing up, big time.
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Stujoe
Valued Member
USA
421 Posts |
Posted 06/20/2005 10:55 pm
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SMS makes the most sense to me. They need some kind of designation because they certainly aren't regular, old, business stikes. At least in my collection, they won't be considered as such. ;)
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national dealer
Pillar Of The Community
USA
2724 Posts |
Posted 06/21/2005 05:59 am
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Here is the NGC statement http://ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle...DArticle=275
However, using the term SMS is not correct. These are not Special Mint Sets. These are Mint Sets. Just because they have changed the process does NOT make it special. This is NOT the first time that they changed the process, and it will not be the last.
The SMS sets of the mid-sixties were quite different as they did not have mint marks. THAT made them special.
If you compare your 2004 Mint Sets to a set from 1964 you will see MAJOR differences. That does not make your 2004 set special. It is simply the evolution of better technology and equipment.
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Stujoe
Valued Member
USA
421 Posts |
Posted 06/21/2005 06:24 am
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The regular business strikes of the mid-sixties did not have mint marks either, though. How does that make the mint sets of that time 'special' in relation to the regular coinage? Were the regular bussines strikes an SBS (special business strike)? ;)
It is true that the mint has admmitted that there has been some extra care in making mint set coins for a while now but that is not even close, in my eyes, to a totally different finish and die preparation which is my understanding of what the mint has done with these coins.
Technology always changes the look of coins over time as compared to previous years. However, this is a deliberate change to process and production designed to result in a coin that is sigificantly different than the current year business strikes. That is the same thing that was done in the mid 60ies to my eyes. Actually more so.
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Edited by Stujoe - 06/21/2005 06:53 am |
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crystalk64
Pillar Of The Community
USA
3147 Posts |
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Metalman
Moderator
USA
6533 Posts |
Posted 06/21/2005 12:32 pm
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I also believe that it was a deliberate change !! but not in the same way as others do, I believe that the process was changed because who would want to buy the mint sets If the nickels came the same way they do in the rolls, nicked,dinged,rubbed, scratched, and as a whole crappy,,
You know Mint sets are supposed to be Business strike coins ,that is there whole reason for being , just handled and packaged a little differently,the mint found out it could not produce a nickel that wasnt already messed up ,they had to do something ,,so hey lets pre-roughen the surfaces ,, good Idea??
I agree that the Mid sixties SMS designation does not apply to this years mint sets, in those years there were no Proof sets and the coins were produced with special dies and handling to replace the proof sets, that is not so with these Imposters !
Rick
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OldDan
Pillar Of The Community
USA
1203 Posts |
Posted 06/21/2005 1:36 pm
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Before we get carried away, I suggest that the truth of the matter is you can take the "SBS" designation and remove the first "S" What is left describes very well what is going on with thsse coins.
If you happen to prefer "SMS" to describe the set, you can again remove the first "S" and you have "More of the Same".
Why not ignore it and maybe it will go away, or get a lot better.
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Metalman
Moderator
USA
6533 Posts |
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national dealer
Pillar Of The Community
USA
2724 Posts |
Posted 06/21/2005 4:28 pm
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How about this? The mint currenly offers Business Stikes, Mint Sets (different), and Clad Proof Sets, and Silver Proof Sets. They also offer special 4 coin presentation sets, 6 coin presentation sets, and bullion. Sounds like this is just one more way to remove the dollars from the collectors pocket.
It is true that Mint Sets represented Business strikes, but they are different. The Mint issued a Lincoln collection that contained business and mint strikes. It was very easy to spot the difference.
I do not see the whole point in designating this new process. Mint sets have always been designed to look different than business strikes. YES, I know that quality control often is very lacking and it is often possible to get business struck coins that actually grade better, but the whole point was to showcase the quality.
By providing a "new" designation, it only gives reason to charge more. Mark my words, this new process will cause prices to go up. It will not provide "better" coins.
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Stujoe
Valued Member
USA
421 Posts |
Posted 06/21/2005 6:20 pm
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I agree that it is just another way to seperate collectors from their $$. I would not be surprised to see a set of regular business strike coins come back along with the satin ones in a couple of years. Why not? Another set to sell that collectors will need to buy to remain complete. Maybe we can then issue a 'reverse' proof set and then privy mark sets and then...
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