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1923 Germany 20,000 mark note, not listed in cat?

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Baanos
Valued Member
Canada
285 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2012  12:32 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Hello, I bought this Germany 20,000 mark note on eBay and I cannot find its listing anywhere in the catalog:



At first glance it seems to be pick 85, but the letters on the left hand side of the note start with N and p.85a through f respectively have letters L, E, G, I, F, J. And these all have their own watermark and the note I bought lacks any apparent watermark.

I would really like to know why it is not listed in the catalog and its approximate value as VF.

Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Baanos

Pillar Of The Community
United States
1231 Posts
 Posted 01/31/2012  7:14 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add onejinx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree it does look like P85. As to which watermark it has, you would need to show some high res pictures to determine it.
Pillar Of The Community
Thailand
1340 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2012  08:21 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add thai-vic to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think the catalog specifies that the N denotes the pattern of the watermark (over the whole note?). In this case the N is for a small diamond pattern.
Check the note against a strong light.

Oops! Ignore the above. The N is just a serial number prefix. What you have to do is check the watermark to determine which variety it is (a to f).
Don't have time right now but I'll post a scan of the watermark patterns as soon as I can.
Edited by thai-vic
02/01/2012 08:25 am
Valued Member
Sweden
68 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2012  08:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add almingbg to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Baanos

Have you tried to find the similar banknote on German eBay (www eBay.com)?

Pillar Of The Community
Thailand
1340 Posts
 Posted 02/02/2012  03:19 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add thai-vic to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hope these images are OK.



Valued Member
Canada
285 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2012  11:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you all, upon closer inspection of the banknote, it was determined that it had a watermark which most resembles the one for P-85b, G/D in stars (actually, the reason why no watermark was found initially is because I'm not holding on to the banknote at this time, my friend is, as I'm out of the country).

However, because the prefix for my note is not listed in the standard catalog, I will simply assume that it was not listed there. The reason for this remains unknown(maybe because so many different types of inflation notes were printed?), although I'd really like to know why.
Valued Member
Canada
285 Posts
 Posted 02/07/2012  11:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
@Baanos

Have you tried to find the similar banknote on German eBay (www eBay.com)?

Actually almingbg, I did not have to, on regular eBay I was able to locate various similar notes which have prefixes which are not listed in the standard catalog. Leads me to believe they are genuine.
Valued Member
United States
293 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2012  9:06 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lettow to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You are not reading the catalog listing properly. The letters in the listings are not series letters. They refer to the watermark patterns. This catalog does not list the notes by series letter.
Valued Member
Canada
285 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2012  9:38 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Alright, that may be true. But then how would you explain that they used specifically L, E, G, I, F and J, and not A, B, C, D, E, and F? What would be the use to assign letters to refer to watermark patterns if each is already described ? Would you have another example where letters in listings are used for such purpose and not for prefixes and the like ?
Valued Member
United States
293 Posts
 Posted 02/20/2012  10:08 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lettow to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The answer to your question about the assigned letters for the watermark pattern relates to how the early editions of the catalog were put together. The early editions did not show images of the watermark varieties that are shown in thai-vic's post. The listings only showed the verbal descriptions of the watermarks. At some point, the watermark illustrations were added to the catalog and the letter reference to the images of the watermarks were added to the listings.

The letters for the watermarks in this listing appear random and out of order because the order of the original listing with only the verbal description of the watermarks was maintained when the letters were added. While this notes listings could have been A, B, C, etc., it would have meant that the listings for other notes that had similar watermarks may have been out of order.

The Rosenberg catalog of German paper money lists 10 different varieties of this note based on combinations of watermarks and the number of digits in the serial number. The Rosenberg catalog also lists the printers but not the specific series letters for this note. The printer is identified by the two letters that appear after the dash in the series. There were 42 different printers for this watermark. This note was printed by C.F. Muller in Karlsruhe. It is listed as Ro.84.e and is priced at 4 euro in UNC and 1 euro in Very Fine.
Valued Member
Canada
285 Posts
 Posted 02/21/2012  12:36 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great answer, thanks!
Valued Member
Australia
262 Posts
 Posted 03/11/2012  11:53 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nicwinner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
well.i think it's a common note :)
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