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A True Specimen Note?

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Valued Member

Australia
146 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2012  08:38 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add huckles888 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

The below is becoming more and prevalent on eBay

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Botswana-5-...em27c3857fe3

The note in question is not a "true" specimen note - it is from a "Collectors Series" issue of notes put out by the Bank of Botswana in 1979

Has the Seller deliberately misrepresented it? Will leave it you to make up your own mind

Now as to the note shown in the below link it is a real Specimen note

http://www.ebay.com/itm/BOTSWANA-20...em53eba49246


Edited by huckles888
02/23/2012 08:42 am
Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2012  8:19 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seemed like a genuine specimen to me at first, as not all specimen have the "all zeros" serial type as I've noticed in my short experience of collecting. But I guess it doesn't make it a true specimen as it's from the collector series.

Not the first time I see sellers misrepresent notes. Some have a lot of experience dealing so it's hard to believe they would leave out such details due to ignorance. I've seen, a month ago, a guy try and I guess succeed at passing off a 1997 100 kroner note as a 1972 100 kroner note due to their similarity. I really should've reported that guy to eBay.
Edited by Baanos
02/23/2012 8:35 pm
Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2012  8:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Upon doing some research, the Maltese crosses are commonly used as affixes when a note is a collector specimen note.
Edited by Baanos
02/23/2012 8:53 pm
Valued Member
Australia
146 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2012  9:32 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add huckles888 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
you are correct baanos - maltese crosses indicate Collector Series notes - there were a few of these "Collector Issues" put out on to the market at the same time as the Botswana one
Valued Member
United States
295 Posts
 Posted 02/23/2012  9:59 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lettow to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The specimen notes with the Maltese cross were sold by the Franklin Mint in the US.
Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2012  06:40 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If a country issues a note stamped SPECIMEN on both sides, then it's a SPECIMEN note, by definition.

If you want to argue there are different kinds of SPECIMEN notes, fine, but I don't see how it can be fraudulent to call it what the issuing gubmint calls it.
Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2012  10:35 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If a country issues a note stamped SPECIMEN on both sides, then it's a SPECIMEN note, by definition.

If you want to argue there are different kinds of SPECIMEN notes, fine, but I don't see how it can be fraudulent to call it what the issuing gubmint calls it.

Sorry, but I have to disagree with this. Specimen notes by definition are primarily used to educated other banks about the note in question. If a country decides to print some for the pleasure of collectors I would refer these as collector specimen notes. There is a huge difference to me.

Moreover, if a dealer decides to put one for sell, I expect it be described as a collector specimen note or at least explain that it is from a collector series and been sold to the public. Otherwise, it's like trying to pass it off as a true specimen note which can be so much harder to obtain therefore fooling certain people who don't know any better.
Valued Member
United States
295 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2012  10:59 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lettow to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Otherwise, it's like trying to pass it off as a true specimen note which can be so much harder to obtain therefore fooling certain people who don't know any better.


People who do not know better need to do their research before spending money on any collectible.
Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2012  11:46 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
True that they need to. In reality though, do they all successfully find out that there is a crucial piece of information missing in the listing's description ?

If someone sees for example, the listing of a 1972 banknote on which the only date visible is 1972 and that upon research they find information on a banknote printed in 1972 which looks the same at first glance, they will assume that the listing is of a 1972 banknote. I mean, what would push someone with less experience to look further than that ? They will not have guessed or found the information that the serial number was an indicator that the bill was actually printed in 1997. Who to blame then ?

Sorry but I still strongly maintain the opinion that sellers are responsible for a complete and accurate listing whether it's for collector specimen notes or modern reprints.
Valued Member
United States
295 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2012  12:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add lettow to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If someone sees for example, the listing of a 1972 banknote on which the only date visible is 1972 and that upon research they find information on a banknote printed in 1972 which looks the same at first glance, they will assume that the listing is of a 1972 banknote. I mean, what would push someone with less experience to look further than that ? They will not have guessed or found the information that the serial number was an indicator that the bill was actually printed in 1997. Who to blame then ?


Under your criteria, every seller of small size US Federal Reserve Notes or Silver Certificates should find out what year the notes were actually printed and put that in their listing in addition to the Series year. As an example, a Series 1935G Silver Certificate was printed as late as 1957. That is a bit of a stretch.

You are also incorrect in assuming that specimens are "by definition" only printed for the banking industry. That is simply not true. Specimens are printed for whatever purpose the issuing authority has them made.

There is nothing deceptive about the description of the Botswana note in the auction huckles888 posted in the intitial post. It is a specimen note.

I can take issue with that seller's statement about this particular note getting more and more scarce but that is sales puffery. Even here, though, self-education by buyers is the key to seeing through that type of BS.
Valued Member
Canada
287 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2012  4:36 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Baanos to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Under your criteria, every seller of small size US Federal Reserve Notes or Silver Certificates should find out what year the notes were actually printed and put that in their listing in addition to the Series year. As an example, a Series 1935G Silver Certificate was printed as late as 1957. That is a bit of a stretch.
I forgot a detail, sorry. In my example, the 1972 note printed in 1972 and the 1972 note printed in 1997 are two different listings in the catalog.


Quote:
You are also incorrect in assuming that specimens are "by definition" only printed for the banking industry.

Not what I said, I said their main purpose is to educated other banks. I did not say that was the only purpose. Is that incorrect? If so, what are they normally used for then?


Quote:
There is nothing deceptive about the description of the Botswana note in the auction huckles888 posted in the intitial post. It is a specimen note.
Ok, can we at least agree on one thing. I'll admit it is a specimen note. But there is a major difference between this kind of specimen note and other kinds of specimen notes, whatever these other kinds are. I'm going to leave it at. I'm not going to argue further about what should be put in a listing and what doesn't need to be put in the listing. Perhaps I'll change my mind when I'm more experienced...

Edited by Baanos
02/24/2012 4:37 pm
Valued Member
Australia
146 Posts
 Posted 02/24/2012  8:03 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add huckles888 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Plenty of comments both ways but at the end of the day I believe there is an obligation to provide full and accurate information


Quote:
Botswana P5a 20 Pula SPECIMEN Sir Khana Rare Sign Masire/Hermans GEM UNC EX RARE


If not provided then there is a case to argue that there is an intention to misrepresent and deceive and the above description of one of these items seems to indicate this


Quote:
If a country issues a note stamped SPECIMEN on both sides, then it's a SPECIMEN note, by definition


The notes in question are not specimen notes as normally understood but are mass produced "collectibles"

FYI I contacted one of the Sellers of these notes and pointed out what they were and after a bit of toing and froing finally got the following response


Quote:
The whole world knows this is a Franklin Mint as it has the Malta sign


Went back and said well why don't you state they are a Franklin Mint product in your listing - No further responses were received which says it all

For the good of any hobby bad practices I believe need to be highlighted to educate those who don't have a lot of knowledge etc
Edited by huckles888
02/24/2012 8:27 pm
New Member
Canada
29 Posts
 Posted 07/01/2012  11:32 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Grandpapa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Without getting into semantics regarding specimen status, has anyone seen a set of these Franklin Mint banknotes offered lately? I have a set that I purchased when they were issued and am curious.
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