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How to tone a Morgan nicely

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 Posted 02/03/2009  02:43 am Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add ron6788 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Does anybody really know the answer to that? I guess if you did you'd keep it a secret. I mean that would be a million dollar secret- if you could turn a $60 64 into a $400 sparkler like the ones in these pics.
What got me to thinking about it was when I went to a coin show the other day. This one dealer had 2 entire cases filled with only rainbow Morgan and Peace dollars. Coins so outrageously colored you'd swear they were painted. But no, they were legit cause they were in PCGS & NGC holders. Got me to thinking, though, is someone doing this? If sulphur-rich cardboard albums are doing this then why not make really rich albums and put all the medium grade coins in them?
So far, I don't find much discussion in the way of legitimate ways to enhance the beauty of our coins. I can't believe that everything is just up to chance. I love these toned beauties but find it really tough paying $400 for a common date 64. I'd like to make my own.
Ron





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 Posted 02/03/2009  08:50 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basicbob101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I read somewhere how someone was toning dollars, can't remember where or how. To each his own, but I prefer untoned or naturally toned coins (these appear un-natural). If cleaning a coin is anathema, why wouldn't doing something to tone the coin be the same? I always think someone would tone the coin to cover cleaning. but that is just me and I have some very idiosyncratic ideas.
"Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing" Dr. Wernher von Braun, rocket scientist
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 Posted 02/03/2009  08:57 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But no, they were legit cause they were in PCGS & NGC holders.


Sadly, that doesn't have to be true.
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 Posted 02/03/2009  09:23 am  Show Profile Check SsuperDdave's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is at least one eBay seller, owner of 5500+ Feedbacks without a Negative, who is known to be able to tone coins in TPG holders.
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 Posted 02/03/2009  11:25 am  Show Profile Check biokemist6's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You want to know how to nicely tone a Morgan? Fill up a mint bag, throw it in a Treasury vault and forget about it for 50-75 years- in most cases, the coins making contact with the surface of the bag will be toned I have also heard that storing them in basements in Battle Creek, MI does wonders as well

Quote:
If cleaning a coin is anathema, why wouldn't doing something to tone the coin be the same? I always think someone would tone the coin to cover cleaning

Yep, you are correct- I would consider AT'ing a coin the equivalent of cleaning as far as damaging a coin because most coin doctors are stupid and will ruin far more coins than they can actually "enhance". And yes, some people will AT a coin to cover up hairlines or scrubbings- that is deception of the worst kind
ANA R-3151318
Edited by biokemist6
02/03/2009 11:28 am
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 Posted 02/03/2009  11:55 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Figman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"Does anybody really know the answer to that? I guess if you did you'd keep it a secret. I mean that would be a million dollar secret- if you could turn a $60 64 into a $400 sparkler like the ones in these pics."

I know exactly how to do it, just like ageing, but don't subscribe to it's deception.Just because we know how, does not mean we should.


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 Posted 02/03/2009  4:01 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Indian1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting post. By the way, what would be the exact normal
toning circumstances of one of these rainbows ?
I.E.: time, air, moisture, light etc. What causes silver to tone
in various colors at once ? The ones I mostly see are usually
just greens and some blue hues. What factors equal what colors ?
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 Posted 02/03/2009  4:17 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basicbob101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Indian1,
maybe biokhemist above can answer that, my supposition would be the chemical content of the atmosphere, the proximity to copper coins that as they oxidize create an air mixture that influences the silver., just as burning Christmas wrapping creates many different colors in the fire, especially the foil wrappings in differnt colors, i.e. copper = green, but I see blues, violets, etc. The only answer I see would be the gases in the air plus moisture, temp, etc.
"Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing" Dr. Wernher von Braun, rocket scientist
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 Posted 02/03/2009  4:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nuggethill to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
G'Day all I've heard of one way they tone coins I don't know if it true or not but I'll keep the secret to my self
or until I can prove the theory works
then I'll show you the end product and tell you how I did it
Harry
Edited by nuggethill
02/04/2009 2:30 pm
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 Posted 02/03/2009  6:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basicbob101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
hmmmmmm.....let me guess....put'em in the microwave, slab and all, for 2-5 minutes!
"Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing" Dr. Wernher von Braun, rocket scientist
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 Posted 02/03/2009  6:28 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Figman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
"I don't know if it true or not but I'll keep the secret to my self"

That's a smart move!!
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 Posted 02/03/2009  6:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add CoinHunter53562 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not sure how people achieve the toning seen in the pictures of the original post, but I have heard of people pan frying silver coins to get artificial toning.
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 Posted 02/03/2009  6:50 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add desertgem to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

According to an article by W.W.White in Mar.,1990 Numismatist, the colors are determined by the amount of sulfides on the coin.
He says the chemical colors are yellow,red,blue,black, with other colors being intermediate.
In an experiment on silver quarters, he got

yellow tinge,barely visible 0.4 micrograms (ug)/sq. cm
yellowish silver 1.4 ug/sq.cm.
light golden 4.2ug/sq. cm.
reddish 7ug/sq.cm.
Bluish 11ug/sq. cm.
Black, the color of pure silver sulfide on the surface.

The thickness of the layers producing the thin film diffraction colors. From 40 nm for yellow to over 120 nm for blue.


Another conclusion was that toning was mainly related to the amount of sulfides in the air, with some effects from Sulfur dioxide , temperature, time, and moisture.

Jim

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69 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2009  10:27 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add ron6788 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
desertgem
According to an article by W.W.White in Mar.,1990 Numismatist, the colors are determined by the amount of sulfides on the coin.

This is the same idea I heard. Sulphur, in various forms, reacts with the silver, but usually to produce muted colors like browns, blacks, or dark yellows.

The Battle Creek, MI hoard that biokemist6 referenced is what I'm talking about. Here's an excerpt from NGC about those coins
Quote:

"The vibrant patina that results from storage in original mint bags is most often referred to by numismatists as "bag toning." For a coin to tone, it must have rested near the canvas fabric of the bag, which in turn needed to be stored in a stable environment that fostered its development. Bag toned coins can display intense iridescent colors that include every shade in the rainbow; these so-called "rainbow toned" coins, which show varying bands of color, are much sought after by collectors."

So what's in the fabric of the mint bags? The coins were stored for years but no telling how long it took to tone the coins and if that process could be escalated.

Yeah, toning is not strictly the original color or surface of the coin but it's still considered natural as part of the aging process. I guess being in mint bags would have to be considered as part of a coin's "natural" environment.

I trust PCGS and NGC to weed out artificially toned and (overly-) cleaned coins. And I have to cause I don't have the equipment or the knowledge to make those judgements. Gassing slabs (or whatever) to tone encased coins is devious and definitely not acceptable. I wonder if the TPGs keep toning records in those barcodes?
Ron
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405 Posts
 Posted 02/03/2009  10:49 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mr Finger to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If cleaning a coin is anathema


anathema-Someone or something intensely disliked

Thanks for the new word!!
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 Posted 02/04/2009  08:48 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add basicbob101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
yur welcome Mr Finger....

glad to add a new word for somebody who bothered to look it up~! I am sure many knew it, some didn't, some that didn't may not have looked it up
"Basic research is what I am doing when I don't know what I am doing" Dr. Wernher von Braun, rocket scientist
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