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Help needed with rare german coin

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Pillar of the Community

United Kingdom
555 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2011  2:08 pm Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add valdiman to your friends list Get a Link to this Message

Hi guys.What do you think-authentic or not.Very rare 5 mark with mintage of 23000 pcs.Jaeger 707.Very high price(if authentic).Any help welcome



Valued Member
Croatia (Locally: Hrvatska)
338 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2011  2:56 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nikola to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
KM# 7 5 MARK
27.7780 g., 0.9000 Silver 0.8038 oz. ASW Obv: Denomination
and date in palm wreath Rev: Bird of Paradise
Mintage:19,000

First I always weighed and measured coin.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
555 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2011  3:13 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add valdiman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry but I don't have an access to measurements.For German coins I'm using Jeager catalogue.I'm not sure why in Krausse mintage is much lower.
Pillar of the Community
United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2011  3:22 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First of all, I have seen a modern forgery of this coin so fakes do exist. The one I have seen is a casting made from an image transfered from an original coin. The weight was off - the coin had no flow lines and the central details were typically weak. My impression of the coin pictured here is that it very likely may be a forgery of the same class.

As to my observations that make me concerned, on the date side at the 2-3 o'clock position something is wrong with the dentils near the edge. Such an irregularity often points to a transfer impression which has been altered or damaged in the process. Original coins made by well established national mints like Berlin should never have problems like this. If the dentils have a slight depression at the centers of each (like a dimple) - it can be from shrinkage of a casting. In any event, the dentils seem irregular.

On the Bird side - notice the apparent file marks around the edge - this is often evidence associated with cast copies. The maker has to grind off seams located along the edge and this is done by grinding.

The central weakness troubles me as well.

Given the rarity of this coin I would be very suspicious based only on these pictures.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
555 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2011  4:20 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add valdiman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ive got answer from seller diam 38mm,weight 22,6 g,axis 180 degrees.If Krausse is correct-I believe it is-coin is about 5,5g off weight.Ill pass on it.I dont like dentils as well.Thanks guys.
Valued Member
Norway
497 Posts
 Posted 01/17/2011  4:39 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Litotes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Krause weight is correct. 22,6 g is as fake as you get them. I'd definitely say you made the right decision.
Pillar of the Community
Australia
8891 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2011  02:09 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a 5 Mark of known provenance.

It has been in our extended family, almost from the date when it was issued in New Guinea. It was given to me by a great aunt, who is long since deceased. She was born in New Guinea, the daughter of a Methodist Missionary and had a birth certificate written in German. She and each of her 3 brothers were given one coin each by their father, who kept them in safe keeping on their behalf, until his death in 1948. I disposed of one of the other coins, under instruction, to auction in 1988. It realised $500.

The coin that I have was given to me; I was favoured, being a coin collector.

I have compared the coin on the screen with the one in my hand.

I agree with swamperbob. The coin is most probably pressure cast, and has faithfully copied the wear pattern of the original.

This one of the main problems in passing judgement on a coin that has been imaged to the screen. On the screen the coin looks OK to me, except for the comments already made. My coin is is as Krause 27.78 grammes. But if it is only 22.6 grammes, it has to be a fake.

Wear with these coins, (on the reverse), first shows up on the breast feathers and the leading edges of the wings.
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
555 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2011  11:51 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add valdiman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great story sel.Nice piece of history you own.I have another one from same seller.Obvious copy.Dentils weak and out of shape.




Pillar of the Community
United States
3189 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2011  12:18 pm  Show Profile Check swamperbob's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The second example also shows evidence of the edge application on the side with the bird in the area from 12 to 3. The edge appears to have been added with a ring die displacing the metal from the edge making the ends of the reeds prominent.

When dealing with modern cast fakes made from transfer images - the clue in pictures are MINIMAL so know your coins and watch for TINY clues. Getting the coin in hand is often FAR TOO LATE.
Pillar of the Community
Luxembourg
529 Posts
 Posted 01/20/2011  3:23 pm  Show Profile Check maudry's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add maudry to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The 2 mark coin is an extremely poor cast copy.
Please check here http://www.ma-shops.de/shops/search...EUR&limit=50 for some examples of German Neuguinea.
searching cents to quarters, giving Euro coins and world coins from many countries:

http://www.coincommunity.com/forum/...IC_ID=137740

searching contact to advanced collectors of french coins send me a message, if interested
New Member
United States
3 Posts
 Posted 01/22/2011  12:03 am  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Osmanlireich to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good thing you passed on it.....it's definitely a fake. German New Guinea coins seem to be a big target for counterfeiters, which is a big part of why I don't have any in my own collection yet. They're beautiful,but be careful
New Member
Canada
11 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  11:31 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Banji to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That coin is definatly fake, you can tell by the rim, and lack of details as well as the color. Its a white metal composition quite often use for forging fake silver coins.


New Member
Canada
11 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2012  11:35 pm  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Banji to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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